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Deploying troops in ambush
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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SteveR
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MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 22, 2019 9:45 pm    Sujet du message: Deploying troops in ambush Répondre en citant
I am struggling a bit with how one may deploy troops in ambush. Page 70 is pretty clear - the first unit goes on top of the marker, subsequent units form a valid group with it. They are deployed inside the terrain OR out of sight of the enemy when the ambush is placed.

So it appears a unit may deploy in sight of an enemy unit as long as they are in the terrain (and not within one UD of an enemy)

However the latest FAQ has comprehensively, legalistically and thoroughly explored the placement of ambushes with respect to hills and added a new prescription. In addition to the above rules they must also be put in a location where they could not have been seen from the opponent's deployment area.

So take a look at the last diagram in appendix 4. It says Player Y may place units in positions 1, 2, 3 and 4 but not 0. Still perfectly clear.

If, however, the opposing player had a unit located where it says "player Y" in the diagram it could see at least slots 3 and 4.

My reading is that in this case player Y could still deploy units in slots 3 and the lower right slot 4 as those slots are "inside the terrain" even though they are visible. Is this correct?
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 24, 2019 7:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
SteveR a écrit:
)
However the latest FAQ has comprehensively, legalistically and thoroughly explored the placement of ambushes with respect to hills and added a new prescription. In addition to the above rules they must also be put in a location where they could not have been seen from the opponent's deployment area.


Sadly the legalism is the result of pressure from certain legalistic quarters and a desire for clarity. Not seen from the deployment area I do not feel is a new rule. It is a layman's description that incorporates an opponent's deployment zone. The author, I believe, did not want gotcha tactics where people would deploy ambush markers for the purpose of trying to get opponents to place a unit in an unnecessary position. The FAQ merely makes clear the ambush marker location should comprehensively evaluate the enemy potential line of sight.


Citation:
So take a look at the last diagram in appendix 4. It says Player Y may place units in positions 1, 2, 3 and 4 but not 0. Still perfectly clear.


Do you mean appendix 5?

Citation:
If, however, the opposing player had a unit located where it says "player Y" in the diagram it could see at least slots 3 and 4.


Assuming you mean p36. I don't think slot 3 is visible from that point. But that is not relevant to your point.

Citation:
My reading is that in this case player Y could still deploy units in slots 3 and the lower right slot 4 as those slots are "inside the terrain" even though they are visible. Is this correct?


It does appear so. I need to check some more stuff because it seems odd, which is why I think you have flagged it. Thank you. But at this point it appears so. Note there are some assumptions of how you get to "player Y" position but I don't think those are relevant.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 24, 2019 7:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Another way to state your question

Page 70:
While the ambush marker must be inside terrain and hidden from view, when it comes time to place the units within an ambush the rule currently reads [right column first bullet] "All units...must be inside the terrain or out of sight of the enemy when the ambush is placed. "

This leads one to believe that units can be deployed inside the terrain but within the line of sight of the enemy when the ambush was placed. ie while the ambush marker is hidden, the units when they appear may be in a location that was visible.

Now the words "ambush placed" should be clarified to either "ambush marker placed" or "ambush units placed". I think I have always played the later, but I see your question.

The advantage of "marker" is, it prevents a player from creating LOS from beyond 4 UD, thus shrinking the possible foot print of an ambush.

DT attention please.
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SteveR
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 24, 2019 10:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thank you Dan, your summary is exactly what I was trying to question. I did mean appendix 5 and page 36. Thank you for stating the issue with more clarity.

"This leads one to believe that units can be deployed inside the terrain but within the line of sight of the enemy when the ambush was placed. ie while the ambush marker is hidden, the units when they appear may be in a location that was visible. "

There does seem to be a difference between the rules for placing ambush markers and ambush units, but I am not sure.

I do note that the rules for not placing units in positions where they could be seen from the opponent's deployment area has to be restricted to only behind hills at a minimum or perhaps in addition to that behind woods or such. It can't be a general rule or LI could never ambush in fields.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 24, 2019 11:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
My view is that you can never deploy ambush units in a position that they would be visible to the enemy from a point greater than 1 UD. This would defeat the requirement of the enemy coming to 1 UD of an ambush marker in order to spring the ambush.

The rules are explicit that you can not place an ambush unit closer than 1UD to the enemy. So if the enemy has occupied ground where you had hoped to deploy units around your ambush marker, then bad luck to you; you can’t deploy ambush units there.
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SteveR
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 24, 2019 11:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thank you Zoltan, your position is not unreasonable. However the rules do state "All units...must be inside the terrain or out of sight of the enemy when the ambush is placed. " and the "or" is there.

Surely we can all agree that LI can be placed in fields even though they are visible when placed.

I've also seen players expend quite a bit of time and CP maneuvering Light Horse to prevent all the units in ambush from being legally placed before moving a unit within 1 UD to spring it which is gamey and silly. If the enemy were there they they would just be seen and not magically evaporate.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 25, 2019 12:07 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If your opponent is spending a lot of time and CP faffing around your ambush marker, then that is exactly what you want! They are preoccupied with a distraction while you decisively crush them in a the main game. On on!
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 25, 2019 2:19 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I don’t have the rules in front of me, but I believe the principle is as follows :-

The rules (amplified by the FAQ) state that units in ambush may be placed at any time the player decides (unless they belong to a hesitant corps). So where the opponent moves different units / groups near an ambush marker, the player may elect to reveal and place the ambush after each such movement. As you say, each move potentially restricts the ambush “deployment areaâ€, but the ambushing player should be given the choice to deploy or not. In other words he must “use it or lose itâ€.

Furthermore, the potential ambush “deployment area†is effectively redefined at the start of each enemy turn - as the enemy peeks further round a given obstacle or into terrain, they uncover more table that could potentially contain ambushing troops until all the table is seen or explored and the question of whether the ambush was real or not is resolved one way or the other. 

Thanks for the note to clarify the definition of ‘unit’ or ‘marker’
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SteveR
Prétorien


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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 25, 2019 5:35 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Being able to place the ambush at any time the player wishes would be helpful in eliminating moves to eliminate possible deployment locations before forceably triggering it.

I don't see that in the rules or the FAQ, though I often miss things.

The rules specify on page 70 that the player may reveal the ambush during his own movement phase, or during the opponents movement phase "as soon as" an enemy unit comes within 4 UD of the marker and must do so when an enemy is one UD away or has a clear line of sight to the marker.
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plefebvre
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 25, 2019 9:08 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
SteveR a écrit:
I am struggling a bit with how one may deploy troops in ambush. Page 70 is pretty clear - the first unit goes on top of the marker, subsequent units form a valid group with it. They are deployed inside the terrain OR out of sight of the enemy when the ambush is placed.

So it appears a unit may deploy in sight of an enemy unit as long as they are in the terrain (and not within one UD of an enemy)

However the latest FAQ has comprehensively, legalistically and thoroughly explored the placement of ambushes with respect to hills and added a new prescription. In addition to the above rules they must also be put in a location where they could not have been seen from the opponent's deployment area.

So take a look at the last diagram in appendix 4. It says Player Y may place units in positions 1, 2, 3 and 4 but not 0. Still perfectly clear.

If, however, the opposing player had a unit located where it says "player Y" in the diagram it could see at least slots 3 and 4.

My reading is that in this case player Y could still deploy units in slots 3 and the lower right slot 4 as those slots are "inside the terrain" even though they are visible. Is this correct?


FAQ pge 36 :"When the units in ambush are revealed in relation to their marker, they must be in a location that would have been hidden from the opponent during the deployment phase (in accordance with the visibility rules defined in Appendix 4)."
Consequently , if you consider the diagram page 36 : if an unit of player X moves behind the hill and arrives roughly to the position where it is written "player Y", this unit can see locations 2, 3 and 4. So the ambush placed in 1 must be revealed if composed of more than 1 unit. Slots 2, 3 and 4 can be used to place those ambushed units, because they were hidden from the deployment zone of player X at the end of the deployment phase.

Technical board/ rule committee
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 25, 2019 3:30 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
plefebvre a écrit:

SteveR a écrit:

My reading is that in this case player Y could still deploy units in slots 3 and the lower right slot 4 as those slots are "inside the terrain" even though they are visible. Is this correct?


FAQ pge 36 :"When the units in ambush are revealed in relation to their marker, they must be in a location that would have been hidden from the opponent during the deployment phase (in accordance with the visibility rules defined in Appendix 4)."
Consequently , if you consider the diagram page 36 : if an unit of player X moves behind the hill and arrives roughly to the position where it is written "player Y", this unit can see locations 2, 3 and 4. So the ambush placed in 1 must be revealed if composed of more than 1 unit. Slots 2, 3 and 4 can be used to place those ambushed units, because they were hidden from the deployment zone of player X at the end of the deployment phase.

Technical board/ rule committee


Thank you.
This means as Steve Roper observed, that units can be deployed inside the terrain but within the line of sight of the enemy when the ambush was placed. ie while the ambush marker is hidden, the units when they appear may be in a location that was visible to enemey that have sicne moved out of there deployment zone. This is counter intuitive to many people. But it does prevent some gamey moves to prevent a previously legal ambush from beign fully deployed.

(What I wrote here is a mis reading of the DT. Sorry)


Dernière édition par Hazelbark le Mer Juin 26, 2019 5:04 pm; édité 1 fois
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 26, 2019 1:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The basic point at issue is that each ambush marker has a potential “deployment zone†in which units may be placed. 

What Patrick is saying is, where the enemy has moved units such that they can see that deployment zone or that intend to move across it, the ambushing player must react and deploy the units in ambush (or declare that part of the zone to be empty). If this contains the ambush marker itself, then the ambush is either revealed or removed as a dummy. 

At the moment the rules only refer to the ambush marker itself, while all the recent questions here and in other threads have been about the wider “deployment zoneâ€. 

Ideally the players need to agree on the size and location of such ambush zones at the start of the game in order to be clear when an ambush must be revealed. 
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vexillia
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 26, 2019 9:43 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
plefebvre a écrit:
FAQ pge 36 :"When the units in ambush are revealed in relation to their marker, they must be in a location that would have been hidden from the opponent during the deployment phase (in accordance with the visibility rules defined in Appendix 4)."
Consequently , if you consider the diagram page 36 : if an unit of player X moves behind the hill and arrives roughly to the position where it is written "player Y", this unit can see locations 2, 3 and 4. So the ambush placed in 1 must be revealed if composed of more than 1 unit. Slots 2, 3 and 4 can be used to place those ambushed units, because they were hidden from the deployment zone of player X at the end of the deployment phase.

Technical board/ rule committee

Simple except you have to remember how much "dead ground" surrounded the ambush marker at deployment.

Hazelbark a écrit:
This means as Steve Roper observed, that units can be deployed inside the terrain but within the line of sight of the enemy when the ambush was placed. ie while the ambush marker is hidden, the units when they appear may be in a location that was visible to enemey that have sicne moved out of there deployment zone. This is counter intuitive to many people.

This is a very confusing comment. A couple of points:
  • I don't understand what a hidden ambush marker is.
  • The FAQ p36 quoted above explicitly states that when units in ambush are deployed they "must be in a location that would have been hidden from the opponent during the deployment phase " so they cannot "be deployed inside the terrain but within the line of sight of the enemy when the ambush was placed".

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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 26, 2019 5:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
vexillia a écrit:

Hazelbark a écrit:
This means as Steve Roper observed, that units can be deployed inside the terrain but within the line of sight of the enemy when the ambush was placed. ie while the ambush marker is hidden, the units when they appear may be in a location that was visible to enemey that have sicne moved out of there deployment zone. This is counter intuitive to many people.

This is a very confusing comment. A couple of points:
  • I don't understand what a hidden ambush marker is.
  • The FAQ p36 quoted above explicitly states that when units in ambush are deployed they "must be in a location that would have been hidden from the opponent during the deployment phase " so they cannot "be deployed inside the terrain but within the line of sight of the enemy when the ambush was placed".


I misread the precision of his statement.


Dernière édition par Hazelbark le Mer Juin 26, 2019 5:03 pm; édité 1 fois
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 26, 2019 5:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
The basic point at issue is that each ambush marker has a potential “deployment zone†in which units may be placed. 

What Patrick is saying is, where the enemy has moved units such that they can see that deployment zone or that intend to move across it, the ambushing player must react and deploy the units in ambush (or declare that part of the zone to be empty). If this contains the ambush marker itself, then the ambush is either revealed or removed as a dummy. 

At the moment the rules only refer to the ambush marker itself, while all the recent questions here and in other threads have been about the wider “deployment zoneâ€. 

Ideally the players need to agree on the size and location of such ambush zones at the start of the game in order to be clear when an ambush must be revealed. 


Actually you are right and I mis-read his comments. He is counting the entire deployment zone as an eligible area and thus a player can now reveal an ambush if there are units in the ambush zone that are seen, even if beyond 4 UD.
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