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Deploying troops in ambush
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 26, 2019 5:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So again to be absolutely clear: you may NEVER deploy an ambush unit around an ambush marker in a position that could have been seen from anywhere in your opponent’s deployment zone at deployment time.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 26, 2019 9:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
So again to be absolutely clear: you may NEVER deploy an ambush unit around an ambush marker in a position that could have been seen from anywhere in your opponent’s deployment zone at deployment time.


well that was always the easy part.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 26, 2019 10:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yup.

And the ramifications are essentially that players need to agree the potential deployment zone when the marker is placed, especially where it is behind terrain. 
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 27, 2019 7:21 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I’m still not sure I understand the subtleties of this discussion, and I’m also pretty sure I’ve never had a single game with any debate about this point .... but isn’t the action point here to ask how one could tweak the current wording such that this point (whatever it is!) is fully cleared up in the new version?
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vexillia
Signifer


Inscrit le: 21 Nov 2017
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 27, 2019 11:21 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
the action point here

Oooh! How very corporate. Wink
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 27, 2019 2:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Take the case where my ambush marker is on my side of a bare gentle hill’s crest such that neither the marker nor any additional bases I intend to place can be seen from my opponent’s deployment area.

My opponent manoeuvres and reaches a point where he has line of sight all the way along my side of the hill’s crest. Perhaps he raced a LC to my table edge. 

Am I now forced to reveal all ambush bases on the gentle hill’s reverse slope (regardless of how far away the enemy is e.g. 24 UD) or must the enemy come to 4 UD (being a bare gentle hill their is no terrain covering which might force the enemy to come to 1 UD)?


Dernière édition par Zoltan le Jeu Juin 27, 2019 4:54 pm; édité 1 fois
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 27, 2019 3:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
I’m still not sure I understand the subtleties of this discussion, and I’m also pretty sure I’ve never had a single game with any debate about this point .... but isn’t the action point here to ask how one could tweak the current wording such that this point (whatever it is!) is fully cleared up in the new version?


It will be.

The action item is, this cleans up a gamey bit that was extremely hard to exploit, but annoying when it was done.

There was potentially a gamey legalistic way to sort of surround an ambush marker with LOS coming from beyond 4 UD but not reveal it. So you could reduce the number of units that could actually deploy from what was legal at game start to a small number possibly even just 1. This new ruling prevents that gamey legalism.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 27, 2019 8:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agreed Hazelbark.

Zoltan a écrit:
Take the case where my ambush marker is on my side of a bare gentle hill’s crest such that neither the marker nor any additional bases I intend to place can be seen from my opponent’s deployment area.

My opponent manoeuvres and reaches a point where he has line of sight all the way along my side of the hill’s crest. Perhaps he raced a LC to my table edge. 

Am I now forced to reveal all ambush bases on the gentle hill’s reverse slope (regardless of how far away the enemy is e.g. 24 UD) or must the enemy come to 4 UD (being a bare gentle hill their is no terrain covering which might force the enemy to come to 1 UD)?


The answer depends on what the enemy can see from it's new position. If you consider the diagram in the FAQ, then the answer is probably "No", unless you had intended to place a unit in position "0" (or any of position "4" should the enemy unit have moved past the lowest point of the hill), since the enemy unit would now be able to see these two positions.

In summary, units must be placed in their "deployment Zone" when the enemy can see into that zone, irrespective of the distance that separates the one from the other.
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 27, 2019 9:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I'm also being left a bit confused by this thread. So a follow-up question....

If there is an ambush in a gully (more than 1UD from the edge) is it revealed by an enemy coming within 1UD of the marker, or when the enemy comes within 1UD of the gully edge and can see into the gully?
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Juin 27, 2019 10:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
I'm also being left a bit confused by this thread. So a follow-up question....

If there is an ambush in a gully (more than 1UD from the edge) is it revealed by an enemy coming within 1UD of the marker, or when the enemy comes within 1UD of the gully edge and can see into the gully?


Check the FAQ about visibility in a gully, Appendix #3 P30.
So, as soon as the enemy unit moves within 1UD of the edge of the gully, it can see into the gully and thus it can see the ambush marker and the entire 'deployment area'.
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Zoltan
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 28, 2019 11:57 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
@Ramses II
You have used the terms “deployment zone†and “deployment areaâ€. Are you distinguishing between the initial game set-up deployment area/zone, and the real estate around an ambush marker where units MAY be deployed once an ambush is revealed?
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 28, 2019 6:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
AlanCutner a écrit:
I'm also being left a bit confused by this thread. So a follow-up question....

If there is an ambush in a gully (more than 1UD from the edge) is it revealed by an enemy coming within 1UD of the marker, or when the enemy comes within 1UD of the gully edge and can see into the gully?


Check the FAQ about visibility in a gully, Appendix #3 P30.
So, as soon as the enemy unit moves within 1UD of the edge of the gully, it can see into the gully and thus it can see the ambush marker and the entire 'deployment area'.


Agree.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Juin 28, 2019 9:30 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
@Ramses II
You have used the terms “deployment zone†and “deployment areaâ€. Are you distinguishing between the initial game set-up deployment area/zone, and the real estate around an ambush marker where units MAY be deployed once an ambush is revealed?
My apologies for any confusion. When I refer to the ambush “deployment zone†or “areaâ€, I am referring to that bit of real estate around the marker where the ambushing units may be placed. 

The point is that this zone needs to be defined at the start of the game (at least notionally) so that any interaction with enemy units can be understood. 
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 280
MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 11, 2019 11:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
"So again to be absolutely clear: you may NEVER deploy an ambush unit around an ambush marker in a position that could have been seen from anywhere in your opponent’s deployment zone at deployment time."

"never" is a very strong word. Light Infantry may ambush from fields, and fields do not ever provide cover. So there is a clear exception

A unit just inside a woods is visible to enemy and can be shot at once deployed but is allowed to be placed there as part of an ambush. Page 63 seems clear regarding visibility until you try to work it all out.

But Dan has promised us that all ambiguity on this issue will be cleared up in the new version and I look forward to parsing it when it arrives Smile
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Black Prince
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2016
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 13, 2019 12:44 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
[quote="Ramses II"]
Zoltan a écrit:
@Ramses II

The point is that this zone needs to be defined at the start of the game (at least notionally) so that any interaction with enemy units can be understood. 


Doesn't this defeat the purpose of a standard 40x40mm marker? If you placed the marker but then state the ambush actually occupies an area of 120x40mm that is giving away too much information about the ambush and we should have different size markers for each type ambush. I can see awkward situations arising because a player thinks he can fit 10 bases of Impetuous MF into a small wood near the centre of the table and when they place them the area of the foot is bigger than the wood. In which I would think any bases that cannot fit in the wood and meet the concealment requirements during deployment are removed from the game.
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