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Ambush deployment of units under 4UD
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 31, 2019 5:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
What I meant was that it is a once off for any specific enemy unit as it crosses the 4UD point. At that point you do not know what the rest of its move will be and if it plans to be sneaky and limit your ambush deployment. Once such an intention becomes clear in English it is too late, but in French you can still react.

I agree every time another unit crosses the 4UD point the opportunity is triggered again. However that is largely irrelevant. If a player plans to use this to limit the ambush deployment they would not give you a second chance

I also agree French version is more complex. However the English version may give strange results since the enemy can actually get the drop on the ambush rather than vica versa.

I leave it to umpires and players to decide which option to choose unless there is a change or FAQ. It is a small tactic, it will not win you a game, but it can be a useful added extra. All I wanted to do was publicise the differance to avoid surprises. I have found it useful a few times before I found out about the rule difference. Equally able to stay silent and try to exploit Smile
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 01, 2019 4:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I still don’t get it or how the French practice is different from UK.
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Sam Juin 01, 2019 9:34 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Unit 3ud from ambush moves to 2 UD.
Can this trigger an ambush deployment?
In English translation it does not.
The french say their original says it does.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 02, 2019 5:22 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Unit 3ud from ambush moves to 2 UD.
Can this trigger an ambush deployment?
In English translation it does not.
The french say their original says it does.

I thought you had to come to 1UD from the ambush marker to force it to be revealed? Why would it be revealed at 2UD?
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 02, 2019 6:48 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
It's your move and your ambush okay.
In your opponents move his movement can trigger your deployment of the ambush.
their movement to 1UD is a compulsory deployment.
We are talking about optional triggers caused by enemy movement in side the 1UD to 4ud zone.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4700
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 02, 2019 9:00 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
It's funny to read you , guys! Very Happy
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 02, 2019 5:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
It's your move and your ambush okay.
In your opponents move his movement can trigger your deployment of the ambush.
their movement to 1UD is a compulsory deployment.
We are talking about optional triggers caused by enemy movement in side the 1UD to 4ud zone.

I still don't understand this concept of "optional triggers caused by enemy movement inside the 1UD to 4UD zone".

Could you please restate this concept (the rules) in as simple a manner possible? Many thanks.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1462
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 02, 2019 7:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
Dickstick a écrit:
It's your move and your ambush okay.
In your opponents move his movement can trigger your deployment of the ambush.
their movement to 1UD is a compulsory deployment.
We are talking about optional triggers caused by enemy movement in side the 1UD to 4ud zone.

I still don't understand this concept of "optional triggers caused by enemy movement inside the 1UD to 4UD zone".

Could you please restate this concept (the rules) in as simple a manner possible? Many thanks.


1. Enemy moved to 3MU away from your ambush marker. You choose not to deploy an ambush made up of 4 MI in a plantation.
2. In your turn you also choose not to reveal the ambush
3. Enemy starts to move into the terrain, ends adjacent to (aka 'on the flank of') your ambush marker but still ends 1.5MU away.

In the English version you cannot apparently deploy your troops until your next turn as you have only one opportunity to do so, which you declined when the enemy came within 4MU. That may mean you will have less space/options to deploy the ambush into, as it may (possibly) be restricted by the (second) movement of the enemy.

In the French version you can say "ah-hah!" (in a French accent... or possibly even "Voila!" if you are really going for it) at any point when the enemy is moving for the second time, and dish out your 4 scary MI in a big long line in front of the approaching enemy during the enemy turn/move

Its pushing the boundaries of corner case and marginal advantage I admit - but that's what it is...
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Dim Juin 02, 2019 10:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OK, I think I get it!

1. An enemy unit is already within 4 UDs of your (unrevealed) ambush marker.
2. It's the enemy's turn; he moves towards your ambush marker but stays over 1UD away from it.
3. You can NOT utilise the rule that allows you to opt to reveal your ambush marker (and deploy your troops) during the enemy's turn when he comes within 4UD of your ambush marker - you forewent that opportunity during the previous enemy turn (allowing the enemy unit to come within 4 UD of your ambush marker).
4. You must wait until your next turn to reveal your ambush and deploy your troops - the enemy's previous move may now constrain your ambush deployment options.

Et voila!
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 03, 2019 4:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Here's my take.

This is a peculiar reading to create a "gotcha" standard. Stop playing WRG lawyer games.

This game is not about legalisms and gothca.

Stop.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 03, 2019 4:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I do not understand why you say a peculiar reading and why you assign some special WRG significance to simply reading the words as they are clearly written. Trying to play to something arcane or not written would seem much more peculiar.

So the situation; "as soon as" is absolutely unambiguous in English, but the French words, previously unknown to many English speaking players, are different. This one cuts both ways also, so no strange advantage available, at least not now since it is out in public.
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 03, 2019 8:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
New questions on this.

When a unit or group gets to one UD of an ambush marker that's revealed as containing troops their move finishes.

If the ambush is revealed at more than one UD. What options do the approaching troops have?

Can they continue their move up to one UD?

Closer than one UD?

Can it wheel and move away?

Can it turn and move away?
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 03, 2019 10:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark
Who do you think is going for the gotcha?
Moving player or the ambusher? .

It not a question of legalisms .
It's seems to be a question of translation to English.
Not just from the french but for non British English.

We can only read what we are given.

Dave
Yes
Probably not
Yes
Yes
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 03, 2019 11:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The rules suggest the unit may move as usual, but may not “charge†the ambushing units. 

Personally I still suggest that the players should treat this a bit like the charge process, so 
- the ‘attacker’ should declare his intended move,
- the ‘defender’ then decides and potentially reveals the ambush,
- the ‘attacker’ then moves accordingly, but without contacting the ambush. 
Note, this does mean that the unit / group can move within 1UD of the revealed ambush. 

This approach would also work with the french definition, where the unit starts moving inside 4UD. 
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 04, 2019 3:34 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
West Browich and Mike B,

I think you are implying a rigidity to the term "as soon as" that is unwarranted

I am prepared to be over ruled by the DT. However....

"as soon as" does not have the variety of words that normally follow it that clearly state at that immediately point and no other point. Where you and I apparently disagree is on that.

As soon as ___ and not later.

Consider the umpire announcing "Your game may begin as soon as 9 am". But your opponent is not there until 9:01. Therefore you have no game? Of course not. Now obviously an umpire would use better wording one would hope. More critically a pub may serve beer as soon as 10 am. This implies after 10 as well and for clarity reasons is usually followed by "or later". Just as "Not later" is usually present. But the absence of both is a wrinkle and I think you have mistakenly picked the stricter side.

I say gotcha because this is to similar to the old WRG Barker byproduct of not playing the game, but attempting to exploit rules to win the game.

This sort of legalism will be invoked as a player moves to say "I am crossing the 4 UD line is the ambush revealed?" The opponent says "no". Then the moving player does some tricky move. The opponent then says here's the ambush. "Nope you missed your chance haha." In my view that is not how the author went forward with the spirit of these rules.

Now obviously you think this is perfectly clear in plain reading. And the word choice is precise. So I understand why you are taken aback by my position. At its core I think a major part of the success of ADLG has been abandoning what grew up as the "WRG Barker rule" where you win by rule exploitation. I was as equally guilty of that method when I played DBM. And of course a retort will be what other rules do you like to not follow. I get that view. But I think this is a fringe case and I think it is much more gray/grey that you do. I think preserving the spirit is important.

Now as Mike points out the rule is clearer in the French language and I am sure this will be clarified in due course.
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