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Ambush deployment of units under 4UD
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 29, 2019 10:00 pm    Sujet du message: Ambush deployment of units under 4UD Répondre en citant
Just wanted to check that everyone is aware of a difference recently found between the French and English language rules

In English you have a once off opportunity to deploy your ambush units as the enemy pass the 4ud point
In french you can deploy your ambush units whenever the enemy move within 4ud.

This could be significant in terms of ambushes deployment opportunities if you start within the 4ud of an advanced enemy ambush, or if you opponent missed once off 4ud opportunity and you expected to play to the English translation.
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Dickstick
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Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 29, 2019 10:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dumb ass question to those with only an English copy don't you think?

Why would I not expect to play to the English translation?

I appreciate your attempt as informing us that there is maybe a difference in the french, but until a faq entry appears, is it not just advance warning of something in the pipeline.?

If the owner of a ambush wishes to ignore the early warning then they must expect the consequences of deployment restrictions it may ensue.
Just like a single LH sent to look see gives up right to not be trapped.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 30, 2019 6:02 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So what happens in a game between players with different rules translations, especially if you are not aware of the difference? We often have at least one or two players with the French rules at UK tournaments.

Language of tournament country?
French as the original version?
.....
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Dickstick
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Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 30, 2019 6:39 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
When in Rome?

For the past three years in France I've had,
"That's not how it reads in french" or
" I wouldn't have written it like that"
So with french umpires we go with the french.

I cannot play to a set of rules I cannot read.
I've been ripped off by British players who cannot read English rules, but at least I have a chance to predict what's coming.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 30, 2019 12:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike - I haven’t understood the difference you are drawing our attention to. Can you have another go at explaining the difference in play between UK and FR please?

The way we play in NZ:
You never HAVE to reveal your ambush units unless an enemy comes within 1UD. You ALWAYS have the option to “voluntarily†reveal your ambush units whenever you like (during your turn).

How does the 4UD “rule†cone into this please?
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 30, 2019 1:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
It relates to voluntary revealing during the enemy's movement, specifically at 4UD. In english it says "as soon as". Therefore it appears to me that it is a once off opportunity.

You make the choice "as soon as" they cross the 4ud point. You do not get the option to choose your moment. If they start within 4, or you do not do so at the moment they cross the 4ud you loose the opportunity.

At 4ud has the benefit of simplicity but can have big impacts on available deployment positions if you cannot afterwards reveal until 1ud
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 30, 2019 4:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike,

I will need to get out my rules, but I clearly recall there is something overriding your theory explicitly allowing a player to reveal an ambush at will. The exception being hesitant corps in ambush.

But further "as soon as" can also mean forever after. You may eat Breakfast as soon as 6 am. Do not prohibit you from eating at 7 am without additional rules. So I think this whole issue is moot.

As for who adjudicates, that is the Umpire.
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Dickstick
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Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 30, 2019 5:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As soon as the clock strikes ten, what time is it?
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barnstormer
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 27 Aoû 2018
Messages: 15
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 30, 2019 7:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You can reveal ambushes anytime in your own turn no matter where the enemy is. But you are also allowed to reveal an ambush in your opponents turn as soon as an enemy unit comes within 4UD. That unit can continue its move but cant charge the Ambushing units. And of course you have to reveal when the enemy is at 1UD.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 30, 2019 7:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ok, so we are only talking about the case of revealing an ambush in the opponent’s turn. In this situation, as soon as (once) the opponent is 4UDs from an ambush I can opt to reveal it in his turn. 

In practice what is the benefit of revealing an ambush when the opponent is at 4UDs, compared with forcing him to come to 1UD to find out what the ambush marker represents?

Presumably the 4 UD rule applies to each ambush. i.e. it’s not a single all or nothing choice to reveal all ambushes the very first time the enemy comes within 4UD of one of my ambushes?
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1464
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 30, 2019 8:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
In English you have a once off opportunity to deploy your ambush units as the enemy pass the 4ud point
In french you can deploy your ambush units whenever the enemy move within 4ud.


The English rules I have say that;
- a player can always reveal an ambush in their own turn by placing the units on table
- an ambush must be revealed when the opposition get to within 1 MU
- an ambush can be revealed in the enemy movement phase "as soon as an enemy unit comes within 4UD"

So, you're saying that the phrase "as soon as..." has been mistranslated, and to be 100% consistent with the French should say something like "if an enemy moves within 4MU"

That change/correction would presumably allow you to reveal an ambush in an opponents turn when an enemy who starts their move within 4MU of your marker then makes a move which doesn't end within 1MU of your ambush marker.

And this would make a difference as the English version can be read as saying that you only get one chance to voluntarily reveal an ambush in the opponents turn, which is the first time an enemy comes within 4MU.

How on earth did you find this out?!!

Did it have a meaningful effect in the game?!

I must admit that I am struggling to see what difference this could conceivably make given that you can reveal an ambush in your own turn and move anyway
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 30, 2019 10:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
An ambush should be revealed in ones own move to be most effective.

Revealed units in opposition turn should be single light troops who can skiddle in their own next turn.

Problem is self made by delayed group reveals.

Consider a wide wood with an ambush marker placed to one end.
It contains 4 units hoping to deploy in a single row along the front of the wood.

My read is each time a new unit comes into 4ud the ambush has a reveal now or don't moment.
Take it or suffer to consequences to you plan.

If revealed early the row of 4 wide is possible.
If ambush waits to 1UD , then other than the unit on the ambush marker no one can be within 1UD of any enemy unit. So if a recon unit heads for the middle of the wood before getting to 1UD then the 4 wide row is not possible. Replaced with one unit on marker, then one behind and others in contact with second unit or even in a column, space permitting or to the base edge, if no space out of sight as per p70 and faq.

It gets a mess if one waits, not a ahh got you moment but a bother that's not good moment.
At 4ud you got your warning message.
Take heed, you've already left your group ambush late, one should have deployed and moved in you last turn.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 31, 2019 12:33 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ahh, finally understood the ’issue’, which I think is not really a problem as the others say. 

As Dickstick says, essentially there is a 4UD bubble around the marker, and where that bubble covers the relevant terrain, ambushing units could be placed up to 3UD out from the marker (since the first unit replaces the marker). 

So this ‘self-revealing’ statement is purely intended to cover that particular situation, and as Dickstick says, this gives the player the opportunity to fully deploy that marker under these conditions. 

The only time this becomes an issue is where the enemy will cross the line of the intended deployment or is approaching the ambush from a ‘flank’ (ie along the line of the intended deployment), where this movement could restrict the deployment of the ambush. 

As with the many other potential positioning issues that come up, I suggest that ideally the players should declare and discuss their intentions before actually moving the relevant units, which would then allow the ambush to be declared and deployed appropriately, and the discovering unit to be positioned correctly with respect to the ambush.  
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 31, 2019 4:27 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Still trying to figure out what the problem is here.

When I deploy a multi unit ambush, I place the first unit on the ambush marker and then place the remaining units in a legal group around the first unit. When placing the ambush market during deployment, I probably place it in such a way as to have several options as to how I might ultimately deploy my group. For example I may want to deploy it in line, column, block or facing up, left or right etc.

In some cases if I wait for the enemy to come to 1UD of the ambush marker before revealing my group, the enemy unit(s) may occupy table space that prevents one of my deployment options. So I may wish to avoid that by revealing early to ensure my units, not the enemy’s, occupy certain table real estate.

I can chose to do this “early reveal†in the enemy’s turn if he comes within 4UD of my ambush marker.

Mike appears to be suggesting that I must exercise this early reveal option the first time an enemy unit comes with 4UD of a specific ambush marker. If I chose NOT to early reveal at the first opportunity, I can’t then early reveal the next time an enemy unit cones within 4 UDs of the same marker.

All a bit esoteric?
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 31, 2019 7:37 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes
Mike seems to think it's a one off opportunity when the first unit gets to 4ud.

I think each unit triggers an opportunity the first time it enters the 4ud zone.

Mike is suggesting the french operate an policy of each time a unit moves in the zone it can trigger deployment. So for each UD I move do I ask if my opponent if the are deploying? It's can be bad enough asking when each unit first gets to 4ud
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