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Villages with integral internal road?
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 01, 2019 8:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
As for the question on visibility, I thought that had already been answered; that visibility is stopped by the edge of the terrain even though it is being traversed by a road. No??


In summary:
- a road is always open terrain for movement purposes, regardless of any terrain is passes through (P.27)
- a road always counts as the terrain it crosses for combat purposes (P.65)
- a village must contain at least some road (P.65)
- a village is a terrain type that blocks visibility and allows troops to hide in ambush (P.63)
- you can only see an ambush from 1 UD (P.63)

I don't see anything about:
- ambushes NOT being permitted on the road within a village because the internal road is considered open terrain for visibility purposes
- visibility NOT being impaired along the road within the village because the internal road is considered open terrain for visibility purposes
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Ven Mai 03, 2019 4:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I am generally in favor of eliminating cheesy bits.

The problem with this definition of when a road can and can't go through a village, is it doesn't defeat the cheesy bit.


So 50% to get a village.
33% to place it off your own long edge.
So we are down to a 16% chance that the village and included road can end up in place for this cheese.
Now
Requiring a second chosen road.
Player dices for village, if they get it, then they pick road so if the village gets deployed in, they drop down road and can still engage in cheese.

So the cheese remains, you have just increased the cost by one terrain pick. That is not a very good solution.

Also remember the sequence. This is a defender placed village. So the other player is the attacker.

If the village is on the centerline 10 UD.
The attacker will deploy a LC at 7 UD. It easily moves up to 1/4 UD away from Village Road exit. Whatever is in the ambush is revealed AND if its cavalry the cavalry/Knight will still be in difficult while in melee. If they are smart they will also have LI moving up as well
To which your reply will be, well then the ambushing cavalry will reverse and move out of the village. Now of course they cannot double move and they are out of position and battle for 1-3 turns. Additionally they need something to prevent the attack LC from coming through. If they leave Cavalry in the village then that pesky LI I mention above can move in, ZOC them and possibly kill them in future turns.

But as I said, you haven't ended the cheese. You have only made it cost the defender one additional terrain pick. If you are really about banning this trick, then just amend the rules to say either no ambush can be on a road in a village or no mounted can ambush in a village. Solve the problem.
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Black Prince
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2016
Messages: 290
MessagePosté le: Sam Mai 04, 2019 5:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Would it not be simpler to make a minor rule change stating the free road from the village must connect the village and the defenders long edge?
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Sam Mai 04, 2019 8:40 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
With respect to all, isn’t this debate making a mountain of a molehill?

Let’s suppose for a moment that the defender does this, placing the village on the center line with a road to the opponent’ edge, and placing an ambush on that edge of the village. 

If the ambush contains a single unit intent on getting to the enemy rear,
  • This tactic is telegraphed by the presence of other units on that side of the table, and the absence of some army points***. Remember that all units of a corps must start the game in command range of their general. 
  • The unit is likely to move out of command range by doing so unless it is LC. Either way, it is easily countered and destroyed.

If the ambush contains a small corps
  • This becomes evident*** when it is not deployed allowing the attacker to deploy his units appropriately. 
  • The Attacker need only move a couple of ‘screening’ units to ZoC the road (or better the ambush marker) to prevent the entire attack from developing. This forces the defender to waste time redeploying the corps.


While this may seem a jolly good wheeze, in practice I doubt it will be anything like as dastardly as people fear, and consequently we need not worry overly about the definitions of where the road goes, or visibility through terrain etc. 

*** Note
If a player is unsure whether the entire enemy army is deployed, he can count up the visible points. To save time in these circumstances a courteous approach is to ask the opponent how many points are missing. 
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Adrian Clarke
Gladiateur


Inscrit le: 17 Aoû 2017
Messages: 37
MessagePosté le: Sam Mai 04, 2019 3:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The reason I started this thread is that I frequently place ambushes on roads in villages (and elsewhere). It is not a game winner, believe me.

Remember the road/village combo goes down before most of the terrain is placed and any potential blocking terrain is moved and the attacker’s camp position and battle plan are organised. The ambush marker itself then goes down before the attacker deploys the unit’s of the command on that flank. Surely having some kind of screening force on either flank is usual? Either way a advanced small command bursting out of ambush too quickly can find itself outnumbered, I have discovered.

If nothing else, this thread has raised awareness. Any rule change should be the result of playing it out to confirm there is a real problem. I’m not sure there is.

Adrian. Cool
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Sam Mai 04, 2019 7:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I feel you’ve summed it up well Adrian:
- not likely to be a major problem (represents historical sortie by small garrison which risks being overwhelmed early)
- not a match winner if sensibly covered by opponent
- adds a bit of flavour to the game and forces opponent to react
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Soranon
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2012
Messages: 2640
Localisation: Toulouse
MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 06, 2019 11:43 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
El Creator has just answered this question

hcaille a écrit:
Dans mon esprit il n'y a pas de différence entre les routes : elles peuvent traverser un village.
J'indique simplement que la route gratuite qui est donnée avec le village doit servir à relier ce village à au moins un des bords de la table.
Il est évident qu'elle peut le traverser.
Confused


So all roads can cross a village.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1464
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 06, 2019 1:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Soranon a écrit:
El Creator has just answered this question

hcaille a écrit:
Dans mon esprit il n'y a pas de différence entre les routes : elles peuvent traverser un village.
J'indique simplement que la route gratuite qui est donnée avec le village doit servir à relier ce village à au moins un des bords de la table.
Il est évident qu'elle peut le traverser.
Confused


So all roads can cross a village.


phew !
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 06, 2019 6:25 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Common sense triumphs !
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 06, 2019 9:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So I guess it is legit:
- to ambush on the road inside the village, and
- to move from that ambush along the road (with bonus) into the enemy deployment zone
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