Art De La Guerre

[A4]

One of many good things about ADKG is its generous attitude to troops based for earlier rules sets. But I've never been sure how pike bases should be handled.

P 8 says that pike can either come in three or four ranks; and the diagram below shows these respectively 45mm and 60mm deep. It also allows as an alternative that thee ranks of pike can be based 40mm deep.

P 8 says that when on 45mm or 60mm bases "the 3rd and 4th ranks form an integral part of the base of the unit, but may be removed temporarily if they impede the movement of the unit." In that case you are left in effect with a 30mm deep base, like that for other heavy infantry.


A. If my pike are based 45mm deep (ie on three 15mm deep stands) can they drop the third rank (and become in effect 30mm deep):

1. When attempting to turn 90 degrees within a 40mm gap? Eg if a pikeman lined up corner-to-corner with friends to his right and left wants to turn to face left.

2. If he wants to make a full, 2 UD move, when only the rear 10mm of his base is in difficult terrain?

3. If he would like to move freely but only the rear 10mm of his base is in an enemy zone of control?

4. When friends want to move across his rear, effectively through that rear 10mm?

5. If he routs and there is a friend say 75mm behind his front edge does that friend take a cohesion marker for the pike routing through them (ie can you discard the third rank when measuring rout moves)?


B. In any of the above cases can pikes based 40 mm deep (like their deeper-based colleagues) pretend to be 30mm (ie disregard the rear 10 mm of their base)?


With thanks, Alan

[Ramses II]

I believe the (English) text here may not be sufficiently strong. It says that existing based figures may be used while the alternative is to use a 40x40mm base.

Appendix 1 of the FAQ suggests that a correctly sized marker should be used to replace an out-sized base where there is some in-game debate. However it does not clearly state that Pike are assumed to be on a 40x40mm base - this is assumed from the diagram.
Given the numerous questions about Pike base sizes, I believe this should be stated explicitly to clarify this issue, and thus to resolve questions like these 

That said, I believe the above is a common assumption. As a consequence the answers to the questions are;-

1. Yes you may drop the rear base, but the notional unit size remains 40mm deep, not 30mm. So
   
   1. The unit may turn 90degrees provided there is 40mm or more, dropping the last base if needed
      
   2. No. If the rear 10mm of the last base is in terrain that reduces movement, only the front 35mm would be outside the terrain, which means that the last 5mm of the ‘real’ unit would still be in the terrain.  
   3. No, for the reasons in 2 above.
      
   4. No, for the reasons in 2 above.
      
   5. No, for the reasons in 2 above. Here the Pikes and the rout zone should measure 80mm, not 75mm.  
   
   
2. No, piles are 40mm deep not 30mm
   

[SteveR]

Here is my take on your quite reasonable question. I too have some questions about Pike bases.

First, let us review the holy script to see what we can clean from the direct word. As yous say on page 8 it discusses pike basing and includes the text:

"In order to remain compatible with existing basing, it is possible to use 3 or 4 ranks. The 3rd and 4th ranks form an integral part of the base of the unit, but may be removed temporarily if they impede the movement of the unit."

and on page 57 it says "A unit receives the penalty for being in the terrain if any part of its bases (excluding optional stands for pikemen or missile support) is situated in the terrain."

Based on these textual references here is my opinion:


1. When attempting to turn 90 degrees within a 40mm gap? Eg if a pikeman lined up corner-to-corner with friends to his right and left wants to turn to face left.

Yes, the extra depth is clearly impeding movement so you can drop it and turn.


2. If he wants to make a full, 2 UD move, when only the rear 10mm of his base is in difficult terrain?

Yes, this is implicit in the comment on page 57.

3. If he would like to move freely but only the rear 10mm of his base is in an enemy zone of control?

My opinion is that this should not be allowed. If the base is there, it is there and I consider the "impede movement" to be a physical rather than game mechanism impeding.


4. When friends want to move across his rear, effectively through that rear 10mm?

More questionable to me, but I would personally say this is okay. That base is physically impeding movement. Would you allow the pike's opponent to do the same?


5. If he routs and there is a friend say 75mm behind his front edge does that friend take a cohesion marker for the pike routing through them (ie can you discard the third rank when measuring rout moves)?

I would say no. You can't freely discard the rank when it benefits you


B. In any of the above cases can pikes based 40 mm deep (like their deeper-based colleagues) pretend to be 30mm (ie disregard the rear 10 mm of their base)?


Here is one that came up in a recent game of mine. I had some impetuous swordsmen on the flank of some pike. The front edge of my swordsmen was behind the 30mm rear of the pike but ahead of the rear edge of the pike (they had pursued into that position) I had one CP and so could not turn the impetuous troops but could have wheeled into the flank of the pikes. I did not do it because that third rank was ephemeral. But it is unclear as to which player decides when it is there and real and under what circumstances.


Let us now all ponder the mysteries of an integral part which can be removed when inconvenient.

[Ramses II]

Just a thought Steve, but if your Impetuous  swordsmen had indeed pursued along the side of the pike, they would be in the exact situation described in the thread “conformation or charging”

As such, if the Pikes were not fighting frontally against another of your units, your swordsmen could have conformed for free against the flank of the Pike. 

However, since Pikes are essentially 40mm or 1UD deep, the swordsmen can wheel into contact with the flank of Pikes (or other 1UD units) pivoting on the rear corner of the enemy base, but not into the flank of Heavy Infantry or cavalry as the swordsmen front corner would be behind the rear of the enemy as you describe. 

[madaxeman]

I bet the next FAQ will clarify that they are treated as 40x40 

After all, we’ve already had the common-sense “Generals are treated as 40x40” clarification.

Luckily all my pikes are rebased to 40x40 anyway as it just looks cool 
_________________
www.madaxeman.com

[SteveR]

Unfortunately the swordsmen were only in a support position, the pikes were in frontal combat.

Much of the pike problem is mitigated by playing in 25mm where three ranks are already exactly 60mm. Still there are times when the third rank is located in difficult terrain....

[A4]

Thanks all who have contributed to this. Despite appearances, I think we are reaching towards consensus.

Especial thanks to Steve R for finding p 57, which makes it clear beyond any doubt that in the present rules the answer to my question 2 is that pikes mounted 45mm or 60mm deep count as being 30mm. I think I agree with Steve's other interpretations though, as he says, some are far from clear and I have seen them played in a variety of ways. My feeling is that Steve might have been unfair to his swordsmen in the additional example he gives as I would consider it analogous to my question 3. Though many of these are the sort of cases where I'd roll a dice to decide. They are real problems, that occur in real games. If the rules remain unchanged, they could certainly do with being addressed in a FAQ.

I don't altogether accept Ramses' interpretation of the present position. It hangs on his counting 45 and 60 mm deep pike as incorrectly based troops, as covered by Appendix 1 of the FAQ. Though I can see the logic of that, my reading of Appendix 1 is that it is there not to cover troops based as prescribed in the rules, but rather figures whose base depths come from minority rule systems or which simply won't fit on the right bases. Eg those dashing, but annoying Museum Miniature camels that will only fit on a 30mm deep base if you cut them in half; and many manufacturers' chariots which will only cram on a 40mm square if you leave the horses' heads reaching over the front and the tailgate dangling over the back. In these cases people quite often put the models on over-depth bases, marking the correct depth on the base and using that for all calculations, as per the appendix. It is typical of the open and sensible approach of AD that such troops are accommodated. By contrast, the rules on p 8 explicitly allow pikes to be in 3 or 4 ranks. P 7 only allows a rank of (15mm) heavy infantry to be 15 mm deep, producing the 60 or 45mm deep pike blocks which were the norm when the rules were published. Basing three or so ranks of pikemen on a 40mm square is allowed as an alternative to that, but the use of the word "alternative" implies that both solutions are correct. The diagram on p 80 only shows pike based 45 or 60mm deep, not the 40mm alternative.

However, things would be simpler and better if they were as Ramses describes. It feels wrong that 60 or 45mm pike should sometimes suffer for their extra depth and at other times benefit from being able to shrink to 30mm. Trying to remember which happens when adds unnecessary complexity to the rules. I am seeing more figures in the UK based on 40mm squares (a rarity when the translation was first published). I hope the rules continue to allow pike to be 45mm deep, for the sake of slow-rebasers like me, but I think the rules would be improved if, as the Madaxeman suggests, they were altered to treat all pike, in all circumstances as being 40mm deep.

Alan

[plefebvre]

[Hazelbark]

C'est Bon