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Multiple Opponents and cancelling abilities
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 280
MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 17, 2019 2:54 am    Sujet du message: Multiple Opponents and cancelling abilities Répondre en citant
Today we had a unit of Pike charged frontally by a unit of impetuous knights and later in the same turn charged in the flank by swordsmen.

The pike took an immediate cohesion loss, fought at 0 base factor for multiple opponents for a total of -1, and loss their impact.

The Knights fought at base factor of 1, with one support for 2. We did not give them impact as the pike received the charge on their front per page 20

Page 57 says "the unit cannot cancel the abilities of enemies that are in melee against its flanks or its rear" implying they still may cancel abilities frontally.

Did we play this correctly?
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4700
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 17, 2019 12:15 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
correct
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 17, 2019 1:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Not quite. 

The Impetuous Kn have impact unless it is cancelled. Here the flank attack robs the Pike of their impact ability, so the knights retain theirs. 
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 17, 2019 3:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Well, I have two differing responses here and this was exactly the issue in question.

The pikemen clearly lose their own impact, this is explicit.

However page 57 in listing abilities cancelled does not include losing the ability to cancel impact, and in fact it says it loses the ability to do so only against the enemies fighting to the flank or rear.

It certainly "feels" to me like the disorder to the pikes should cause them to not cancel impact but the words on page 57 do not seem to say this.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 20, 2019 5:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi guys

Can anyone confirm where in th rules it says that spear/pike also charged in the flank loose the ability to cancel impact impact of frontal mounted. I likewise cannot see it anywhere
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 20, 2019 5:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I believe the intent is that the Impact ability includes cancelling Impact. However the wording for Heavy Spearmen (and Medium Spearmen for that matter) does not read like this.

I will be checking this with the TB.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 19, 2019 8:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
Hi guys

Can anyone confirm where in th rules it says that spear/pike also charged in the flank loose the ability to cancel impact impact of frontal mounted. I likewise cannot see it anywhere


What about p 14
"they cancel the impact ability of mounted troops if they receive a charge on their front edge"
So if they also receive a charge on their side edge the situation does not apply.

Where I think you are correctly puzzled is the 3rd bullet on p 57, which looks for all rights just to refer to a single attack on a flank or rear. I suspect the French version translates the parens portion e.g. as more all inclusive.
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SteveR
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2018
Messages: 280
MessagePosté le: Dim Mar 24, 2019 11:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
 I think that is a bit of a stretch Dan.

Is it even possible to charge a unit already in Melee?  I thought subsequent contacts were considered to be movements into support rather than independent charges. This for example allows light infantry to move to their front edge in contact with the enemy even though they cannot charge.  

The first sentence of page 36 is pretty explicit That one may only charge units not already in melee.   So the second unit did not charge.
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gelin
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 09 Oct 2017
Messages: 17
Localisation: Athens
MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 29, 2019 8:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If there is not a translation error or omission, i read the rule as any mounted charge to the front of pikes and spears lose the impact ability since the infantry receives the charge to their front. The flank attack is not taken into account concerning the attacking unit but penalizes the infantry to -2. On the other hand, if the mounted can work their way to the flank of the infantry then the mounted impact is applicable.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4700
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 29, 2019 3:48 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In case of multiple attacks, 2 situations may happen:
1)One of the opponents contacts front to front. So he is the main opponent in melee round.
In the submited case, Kn bennefits are 1 basis factor, +1 support provided by flank-contacting unit. His impact is lost because fighting against pk in pike's front.
Pikes fight with basis factor droped to 0, and suffered a desorder, so -1.
Kn has +3 in final. Furious charge still applies.

2) Either 2 opponents contact by front or rear. The main opponent is the fist contacting. Ie, a kn contact flank and Pk the rear, kn contacting first.
So Kn has 1 basis factor, +1 impact, +1 fighting in the flank, + 1 support provided by freindly pk.
Pk still stay to -1, so +5 for kn in final.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 29, 2019 3:52 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Not quite. 

The Impetuous Kn have impact unless it is cancelled. Here the flank attack robs the Pike of their impact ability, so the knights retain theirs. 

Pikes has impact hability and cancels mounted'impact. Be taken by flank cancel impact, but rule don't says cancellation hability against mounted is lost too.
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Ballista
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 15 Jan 2018
Messages: 115
MessagePosté le: Ven Mar 29, 2019 11:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So which version has the TB ruled on when pike is contacted to the front and then flank ?

We have always played the Kn unit in this case does not retain impact, however the pike does not get impact and as has been commented on drops to -1 due to flank contact.

Nothing in the rules allows the Kn to retain impact when contacting pike/long spear frontally regardless of the situation with the pike/long spear unit.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
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Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Sam Mar 30, 2019 4:17 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I saw the new FAq yesterday, you have just to wait and see...
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Ballista
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MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 01, 2019 1:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So when will the new FAQ be published ?
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 01, 2019 1:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
depending TB
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