Art De La Guerre

[MKennedy]

Had a friendly game several days ago were the following disagreement occured.
Here's the situation:

HC1HC2HC3
LI1


Kt1Kt2

Enemy Heavy Cav 1,2,3 and Light Inf 1 are facing down.
Impetuous Knights 1 and 2 are facing up.
There is a 2 UD distance between the Knights and the Heavy Cav.
Kt1 is lined up opposite HC1. Same for Kt2 and HC2.

Kt1 charges HC1 who decides not to evade.
Kt2 charges HC2 who does evade.

Now comes the disagreement.
As Kt2 advances, it will make corner to corner contact with LI1 first.

Per page 36, under Charge Definition

[Zoltan]

Kt1 can not charge HC1 without first charging LI1. Thus LI1 is the target of a charge. Being LI in the open it must evade, revealing HC1. So LI1 will NOT be in front of HC1 when Kt1 moves forward. 

Kt1 is now permitted to carry on its charge towards HC1 (another target which is within Kt1’s normal charge distance when the charge is declared). Because HC1 has elected to receive the charge (not evade), Kt1 will halt on contact with it.

HC2 elects to evade Kt2’s charge. Kt2 is entitled to stop its charge move upon reaching a position where it can provide support to Kt1 which is already in contact with HC1. It won’t end well for HC1.

[Viking709]

waht happens if KT1 and KT2 slide in order to charge HC2 and HC3 and the HC2 and HC3 decide to stand Does the LI have to evade because KT1 comes into corner to corner contact or does it stay in place as it is not the target of the charge?

[Ramses II]

As Zoltan says, LI that are “contacted in the open” must evade. This is any contact, not just frontally.

The answer to the other question can be found in the FAQ in the RULES section. Check out the diagram at the bottom of p8, example #1

[MKennedy]

Not sure what happened in my cut and paste, but LI1 should have been directly in front of HC3.


HC1HC2HC3
LI1


Kt1Kt2

Does this make it any clearer?

[Ramses II]

So like this:-

HC1HC2HC3
. . . . . . LI1


KT1KT2


And no, the result is still the same; assuming this happens in the open, LI1 must evade being contacted by heavier troops. The only way that LI may stand when contacted in the open is if they are side by side with the target of the chargers providing support like this

HC1 . HC3LI1 
KT1 . KT2

(Assuming that KT2 chooses to conform with HC3, rather than stay in support of KT1)

[MKennedy]

This answers my question. Thankyou for your reply's.

[Viking709]

What happens if you replace the LI in front of HC3 is another Hvy Cav Bow HC4
KT1 goes straight in and hits HC1 KT2 is targeting HC2 but comes into corner to corner contact with HC4   
Does KT2 ignore its target HC2 and forced to conform to HC 4 since it contacted it on the corner?

[Ramses II]

This question is similar to one asked in this thread
If we start with this scenario where the charging knights are Impetuous;

HC1HC2HC3
 . . . . . .HC4

KT1KT2

The first unit that is contacted is HC4, (corner to corner) which stops KT2.

According to p36, “continuing a charge”, those units that have not made contact may continue moving (must if they are Impetuous). Here, KT1 has not made contact, so it continues forward into contact with HC1.  

If it was not Impetuous, KT1 would have the choice of Conforming with KT2 or continuing forwards. 

[Viking709]

Thanks

[Mike Bennett]

Hi Gavin.

In your example why could not the group on kt1 and kt2 both conforn and then kn1 stop since although it is impetuous it is now in contact? Unless this is allowed impetuous troops cannot stop as overlaps in a charge unless the groups are perfectly lined at the start of the charge.

It is a strange impact on ZOC rules though, if it moves out of a ZOC from hc1

[Ramses II]

Hi Mike. 
Conformation effectively takes place after all movement has ended. In this case Impetuous KT1 is not in contact with an enemy when the group contacts HC4, so it may not stop and conform, but must “continue the charge” as described on p36. 

This is summarised in the FAQ in the sequence at the bottom of p9. 

To your point about the ZoCs of HC1 and HC2, Conformation is an involuntary move which may cause a unit to enter or exit a ZoC, and this particular example is covered by the FAQ, top of p7. 

[Mike Bennett]

Thanks Gavin, i see the point on page 9,

 #####

 2. When the units in charge range have contacted the enemy, the other units in the group apply the rule for continuing a charge described on page 36 (which may cause the group to split):
a. Impetuous units are forced to continue charging to the maximum distance,
b. Non-impetuous units can either :
 i. stop on the line reached by the group at first contact (L1),
 ii. continue the movement from L1 to the limit L2 representing the maximum charge distance.
 iii. Units that have contacted the enemy then conform


 #####


 I see that this examples is about hitting at angle, when group conforming is not possible. It makes a lot less sense when applied to paralell freindly / enemy groups and gives some strange results applied like this angled example.

If perfectly lined up then overlaps on both ends touch corners at each end and stop

However

If not lined up the overlap on one end touchs an edge, then slides when the group slides and gives a flank. The other end would only touch after the group aligned, otherwise it flies on by and so there would be no overlap that end. Even stranger if left to do an uncontrolled charge after the rest of the group it might well often actually target the overlap position rather than the fly by