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Are heavy infantry worth the points?
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Gingerdave
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MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 12:14 pm    Sujet du message: Are heavy infantry worth the points? Répondre en citant
Incompetent command could always be the reason, especially if it's my army . . .

However, something that we've been talking about at the club is whether Heavy Swords and Heavy Spears are worth 8 points. They seem to lose against virtually everything.

It's the basic, 8-point HI that has the problem. Give them something, be it Impact, Impetuous, Elite, 2HW, Armour . . . they do pretty well. It's when they don't have any of those the usual result is that they lose the initial roll, then get ground down. Even if you outnumber the enemy it doesn't help!

For 8 points you can get Medium Swordsmen 2HW - they're faster, hit harder and can go into (some) terrain without penalty. Yes, Knights go through them like they're not there, but knights do fairly well against HI as well.

Has anyone else seen this, or do we just not know how to handle them? Embarassed
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Snowhitsky
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MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 12:52 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
HI are the best invention since sliced bread. Even without impact they have 4 cohesion points. They last a long time which gives you time to use the points you've saved elsewhere on the table to win.
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Gingerdave
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MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 1:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I don't see them lasting a long time.
3 rounds of combat is good, 2 is far more common.
Give them some toys and they can either win the first round and so have the advantage, or they don't lose as badly.
Once they've taken that first cohesion loss they're toast.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 3:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Heavy spears have impact if charged by mounted. 
Heavy Sword cancel the impact of charging Impetuous swordsmen 

Horses for courses.... 
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 3:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I disagree GingerDave. The points costings do seem to be pretty accurate, certainly around the most prevalent units. Much depends on the opposition and circumstances.
The point you are making is that the "extra toys" give the unit some slight advantage; Elite and Armour are roughly equal to +1/2, Impact is +1 etc. Across a number of combats these advantages should have a positive effect in your favour (assuming a normal distribution of 'luck').

But you should also note that there are a number of subtle matchups that work both for and against the unit; Impetuous HI cost the same and can be very effective against infantry that are not swordsmen (but need a good leader to control them). HI spear can hold their own against most mounted including knights (since they retain their impact whilst cancelling that of the enemy).
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 6:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowhitsky a écrit:
HI are the best invention since sliced bread. Even without impact they have 4 cohesion points. They last a long time which gives you time to use the points you've saved elsewhere on the table to win.

since crispy bacon, isnt it?
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Gingerdave
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MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 9:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes, heavy spears have impact if charged by mounted.

Cv don't charge HSpear.

If knights charge HSpear, they're at +1, the spears are +2, but the armour soaks up that extra point. Then they're 2 undamaged units fighting, and the armour usually means the Knights survive longer. If the knights win, Furious charge knocks 2 points off the HI, and the next turn they lose the other 2.

Yes, Knights are more expensive, but if 6 knights beat 6 HSp, the knights can then do as they want.

In most games I've seen, a group of 6 heavy spear against will lose to an equal points of anything. If there are more HSp, the ones engaged die before the others can join in. If there are more opponents they overlap and win.

The extra cohesion doesn't matter - once than first point has gone, the odds are that the second turn takes the rest off you, so you're better off with cheaper MI and extra points spent elsewhere. But if you're elite, or armoured, you don't lose that first point, so you hold for longer and then the rest of your army can roll up their line.

Which would you prefer - mediocre pike or ordinary Heavy Spear?
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 11:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mediocre pike are equal to elite spear frontally.
So I'm with the pike until flanks are compromised.

Spear v knights.
Spear can afford reserves
Reserves finish the job
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Dernière édition par Dickstick le Mer Fév 12, 2020 9:20 am; édité 1 fois
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 24, 2018 3:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Gingerdave a écrit:
Yes, heavy spears have impact if charged by mounted.

Cv don't charge HSpear.

If knights charge HSpear, they're at +1, the spears are +2, but the armour soaks up that extra point. Then they're 2 undamaged units fighting, and the armour usually means the Knights survive longer. If the knights win, Furious charge knocks 2 points off the HI, and the next turn they lose the other 2.

Yes, Knights are more expensive, but if 6 knights beat 6 HSp, the knights can then do as they want.

In most games I've seen, a group of 6 heavy spear against will lose to an equal points of anything. If there are more HSp, the ones engaged die before the others can join in. If there are more opponents they overlap and win.

The extra cohesion doesn't matter - once than first point has gone, the odds are that the second turn takes the rest off you, so you're better off with cheaper MI and extra points spent elsewhere. But if you're elite, or armoured, you don't lose that first point, so you hold for longer and then the rest of your army can roll up their line.

Which would you prefer - mediocre pike or ordinary Heavy Spear?


Knowing Cv won’t charge Sp is kinda useful
8 point Sp vs 12 point Kn on evens at Impact is kinda good for me.. you even have points apart to give the Sp support to neutralise the armour Wink 
Using 6 of anything in a block is probably a mistake, almost certainly with Sp. they are an anchor and a rock in your line of other stuff that may well still lose, but by taking longer to lose give you opportunities elsewhere for your wider, cheaper or more pokey troops to win the game for you.

Not many armies get mediocre pike. They do the same job as spear, probably a bit better. In their absence, you’d take spear as a substitute 

Seriously though, Sp are best as part of a plan, they are not really a plan in their own right. 

Impetuous HI are a plan, Knights are a plan, Pike can be a plan, but Sp need to be part of a plan. Unless they are Spartans....
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 24, 2018 3:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
HI of all stripes are quite effective. Consider your H Sp vs. HC Bow.

Even after the H Sp have taken a cohesion hit they are still up +1 to +0 in the first round of combat for a unit that costs 8 pts. vs. a unit that costs 11.
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Gingerdave
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MessagePosté le: Lun Nov 26, 2018 12:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Citation:
HI of all stripes are quite effective. Consider your H Sp vs. HC Bow.

Even after the H Sp have taken a cohesion hit they are still up +1 to +0 in the first round of combat for a unit that costs 8 pts. vs. a unit that costs 11.


Why would the HC Bow charge?

Surely it's better to shoot the H Sp, evade until the HC get to the back of the board, then wait for the H Sp to charge?

Then the HC have +0, the spears probably get +0 (disorder), so both are on 3 points of cohesion, the HC have armour so should win the fight! They can even disengage if it all goes wrong.

Citation:
Seriously though, Sp are best as part of a plan, they are not really a plan in their own right.


I tried that last time. The results were . . . messy.

----------------------------
List 101, Romano-British, 26 units.
CMD 1 Competent
4 H Sp
1 M Swords
1 Li
2 H Cv

CMD 2 Competent, Unreliable, Included
4 H Sp
1 M Swords
1 Li
2 H Cv Impact Elite (1 with General)
1 LH Mediocre

CMD 3
The same as CMD 2
----------------------------

So there's a plan!

CMD 1 goes up the middle. The H Sp are meant to advance while the H Cv either slot in between the middle command and one of the flank commands, or they wait as reserve and patch any holes in the spear line. With 2 of them they might even get flank charges on anything that breaks through the H Sp line. The MI either widens the line or goes up any terrain nearby.

CMD 2 goes up a flank, the H Sp form up with the centre command, the MI do the same as in the middle, and the Elite HCv swings wide and then hits the flank to roll it up while the H Sp are slowly dying.

CMD 3 does the same as 2, just on the other flank.


Up against a load of Swiss (Med swords 2HW, pikes, a few heavy knights). No terrain to speak of.

The Swiss Knights head for one flank, so I move the Elite HCv and spears so the knights hit the spears.

From left to right:
H Sp (damaged by shooting) vs H Kn - equal factors, spears are wiped out.
H Sp beat the Kn, then are destroyed by disordered Kn in 2 turns.
H Sp lose the initial contact, destroyed the turn after.
H Sp hold off M Sw 2HW, disordered at the end of the game, don't cause any damage.

H Sp destroyed by M Sw in 2-3 turns.
A win! H Sp defeat disordered pike, in 2-3 turns with the aid of the HCv.

2 H Sp manage to hit a pike unit on 2 sides, then the HCv join in at the rear - the pike nonchalantly destroy the spears one at a time while rallying their disorder.
2 H Sp never made it in, there wasn't enough space for them.


This is the problem - the heavy infantry lose, and they don't last long enough to get the flanks and/or overlaps into play. Sure, if your opponent leaves gaps in the middle of his line, you can move through that - but if he stays in a single line the higher quality troops break through the spears and then the army breaks.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Lun Nov 26, 2018 5:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That looks like an army built around 12 spears, which I'd suggest definately falls into the "spears are the plan" category Wink

It also doesn't look to have enough proactive troops to get you onto the front foot anywhere along the line - its built to all walk forward at the same pace and asking to be charged where the enemy chooses. Proactive could be a few more good troops, or could just be a lot of fast moving troops to overwhelm someone in one spot quickly

I've looked at SRB, and its admittedly not at the top end of competitiveness... and I think it;d struggle against Swiss any way you look at it.

My version would be this:

Brilliant general
4 British Horsemen Heavy cavalry impact Elite
2 British Horsemen Heavy cavalry ----------
3 Heavy Spearmen Heavy spearmen ----------

Ordinary general
5 Heavy Spearmen Heavy spearmen
1 British Horsemen Medium cavalry
2 light bow Light infantry bow

Competent General
2 Medium Spearmen Medium spearmen
1 Light Javelin Light infantry javelin
4 Irish Mercenaries Medium swordsmen

Theory being...

Command 1 has enough stuff to march up a flank and be wider than opposing mounted - the spears are not there to win, just to absorb an enemy charge for a few turns whilst the mounted get round the flank

Command 2 buts up against Command 1 and stops the spear being overlapped by making them 8 wide

Command 3 does as-yet unspecified stuff in some terrain which I need to succesfully get on table.

Its not great I admit, and will struggle against late period Knights - but then again, its adark ages army so should only be judged against its historical peers which won't include any Knights (other than Cataphracts).
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Mar Nov 27, 2018 12:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Gingerdave a écrit:
Citation:
HI of all stripes are quite effective. Consider your H Sp vs. HC Bow.

Even after the H Sp have taken a cohesion hit they are still up +1 to +0 in the first round of combat for a unit that costs 8 pts. vs. a unit that costs 11.


Why would the HC Bow charge?


Killing things with shooting is extremely slow and there is a good chance the HC wind up off the table before they succeed. You are shooting +0 vs. +1 so need to win by 2 to inflict a hit (10 in 36). So you score a hit just about every 25% of the time - every two turn at best. The H Sp are moving forward 2 MUs a turn so every time you score a hit they have moved forward 4 MU, on average to kill them with shooting will see them advancing 12-16 MU enough to push you off the table.

Yes this is hypothetical and more is going on, but just expecting shooting to get the job done is problematic against people who know what they are doing.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mar Nov 27, 2018 3:30 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Gingerdave a écrit:
Citation:
HI of all stripes are quite effective. Consider your H Sp vs. HC Bow.

Even after the H Sp have taken a cohesion hit they are still up +1 to +0 in the first round of combat for a unit that costs 8 pts. vs. a unit that costs 11.


Why would the HC Bow charge?

Surely it's better to shoot the H Sp, evade until the HC get to the back of the board, then wait for the H Sp to charge?

Then the HC have +0, the spears probably get +0 (disorder), so both are on 3 points of cohesion, the HC have armour so should win the fight! They can even disengage if it all goes wrong.

Citation:
Seriously though, Sp are best as part of a plan, they are not really a plan in their own right.


I tried that last time. The results were . . . messy.

----------------------------
List 101, Romano-British, 26 units.
CMD 1 Competent
4 H Sp
1 M Swords
1 Li
2 H Cv

CMD 2 Competent, Unreliable, Included
4 H Sp
1 M Swords
1 Li
2 H Cv Impact Elite (1 with General)
1 LH Mediocre

CMD 3
The same as CMD 2
----------------------------

So there's a plan!

CMD 1 goes up the middle. The H Sp are meant to advance while the H Cv either slot in between the middle command and one of the flank commands, or they wait as reserve and patch any holes in the spear line. With 2 of them they might even get flank charges on anything that breaks through the H Sp line. The MI either widens the line or goes up any terrain nearby.

CMD 2 goes up a flank, the H Sp form up with the centre command, the MI do the same as in the middle, and the Elite HCv swings wide and then hits the flank to roll it up while the H Sp are slowly dying.

CMD 3 does the same as 2, just on the other flank.


Up against a load of Swiss (Med swords 2HW, pikes, a few heavy knights). No terrain to speak of.

The Swiss Knights head for one flank, so I move the Elite HCv and spears so the knights hit the spears.

From left to right:
H Sp (damaged by shooting) vs H Kn - equal factors, spears are wiped out.
H Sp beat the Kn, then are destroyed by disordered Kn in 2 turns.
H Sp lose the initial contact, destroyed the turn after.
H Sp hold off M Sw 2HW, disordered at the end of the game, don't cause any damage.

H Sp destroyed by M Sw in 2-3 turns.
A win! H Sp defeat disordered pike, in 2-3 turns with the aid of the HCv.

2 H Sp manage to hit a pike unit on 2 sides, then the HCv join in at the rear - the pike nonchalantly destroy the spears one at a time while rallying their disorder.
2 H Sp never made it in, there wasn't enough space for them.


This is the problem - the heavy infantry lose, and they don't last long enough to get the flanks and/or overlaps into play. Sure, if your opponent leaves gaps in the middle of his line, you can move through that - but if he stays in a single line the higher quality troops break through the spears and then the army breaks.


To get these results there must have been a lot of 6 - 1 die rolling. If you run through the situations without the dice results you will see a big difference.
Ie last one pike die in round three.
First spear dies in 5 turns (MI would die in first turn)
Second spear kills knights in three turns.
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Gingerdave
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MessagePosté le: Mer Nov 28, 2018 12:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Citation:
Killing things with shooting is extremely slow and there is a good chance the HC wind up off the table before they succeed. You are shooting +0 vs. +1 so need to win by 2 to inflict a hit (10 in 36). So you score a hit just about every 25% of the time - every two turn at best. The H Sp are moving forward 2 MUs a turn so every time you score a hit they have moved forward 4 MU, on average to kill them with shooting will see them advancing 12-16 MU enough to push you off the table.


The HCv don't have to wipe the HI out - one point of cohesion off the HI will put the fight at evens, except the HCv have armour.


Citation:
So I'm with the pike until flanks are compromised.


This is the point I'm flailing towards! Are there any armies that use Ordinary Heavy Spear who would be unchanged or less effective if those spears were replaced by Mediocre Pike?

As you say, the pikes are fine until their flanks are turned - so if you have lighter troops to handle the flanks the pikes are better off than the spears.

However the Scottish wall-of-pikes seems fairly effective, and this doesn't have flank support! Does anyone use the Heavy Spear version?


Citation:
That looks like an army built around 12 spears, which I'd suggest definately falls into the "spears are the plan" category Wink


I've tried something similar to that list you've posted. It occasionally worked, but the cavalry didn't always get to the spears to save them in time. So I thought that using integrated commands would provide each small block of spears with a cavalry unit to bail them out of trouble.

Yes, it does kind of lumber forwards - but it's wider than most opponents and if there's cavalry out on the flanks that's (in theory) some bad choices for the other fellow to make.


Citation:
To get these results there must have been a lot of 6 - 1 die rolling. If you run through the situations without the dice results you will see a big difference.


Possibly so. It does seem to happen an awful lot with basic HI - and not just to me. I've seen a line of H Spear collapse when hit in the front by impetuous light chariots!
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