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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Army lists
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MathomHouser
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Inscrit le: 18 Sep 2018
Messages: 26
Localisation: Cardiff, Wales
MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 11, 2018 11:00 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Would there be any merit in Including all my commanders in their corps' MCv unit? That would free up 6 points, and if I also gave up the 2 points of Fortifications, I could buy 2 LI Bows. A mighty 27 units!

My thinking is that if the MCv have to move in to plug a gap in the HI line, then we're in dire straits anyway, and the commander may as well be risked. It's also thematic for the Germans to lead from the front and take risks!
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 11, 2018 11:14 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
MathomHouser a écrit:
Would there be any merit in Including all my commanders in their corps' MCv unit? That would free up 6 points, and if I also gave up the 2 points of Fortifications, I could buy 2 LI Bows. A mighty 27 units!


This is a terrible idea. If you include do it in H Sw. I would probably do it with one smaller corps.
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MathomHouser
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 11, 2018 11:55 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
MathomHouser a écrit:
Would there be any merit in Including all my commanders in their corps' MCv unit? That would free up 6 points, and if I also gave up the 2 points of Fortifications, I could buy 2 LI Bows. A mighty 27 units!


This is a terrible idea. If you include do it in H Sw. I would probably do it with one smaller corps.


Ha! I won't then. I have included the commander in my tiny cavalry corps.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1462
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 11, 2018 2:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Adding them in a Cv unit means they can't then move with the infantry at all, so their "free" commanders pip is only ever available to move the single reserve cavalry unit.

Essentially you would be throwing away 3 CP's every single turn.
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 12, 2018 11:24 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
Adding them in a Cv unit means they can't then move with the infantry at all, so their "free" commanders pip is only ever available to move the single reserve cavalry unit.

Essentially you would be throwing away 3 CP's every single turn.


And permanently attaching your commanders to the weakest most vulnerable units in the army...
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Truscott Trotter
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 04 Déc 2017
Messages: 12
MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 12, 2018 9:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OTOH if your general wants to run away leaving your infantry to slow the enemy down rhen its perfect! Cool Twisted Evil
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fdunadan
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009
Messages: 978
MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 12, 2018 9:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
And the general will not be able to aid to rally the HI...

All in all, an awful idea Very Happy

Including the general is, IMHO, not worth the 3 budget points, except if

* it is a unit that will not have to fight and can evade (Cv Bow or LH)
* it is a unit that can form a group with the others units of the corps (so you can use the free command point in a group)
* it is a unit well protected (Armor and/or Elite)

otherwise, the negative effects ( combat mandatory, bonus for rallying only on the included unit, malus of +1CP when in melee) are far worse than the points gained in budget.

you can drop the 2 fortifications: you will not protect your Heavies Elite behind them. Group your Cav in one corps, intended in flank march or ambushes or gaining the upper hand on a weaker Cav / MI corp. Attack in good terrain with your heavies, using the LI to soften the ennemy before the rush or fight in terrain.

Fortifications are useful to protect weak troops or immobile (Art notably) but they can't move...so when your main force is Impetuous Elite, you've got no use for fortifications... except for the camp, as it will be impervious to LH or LI attacks and provide 1 unit for moral.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 12, 2018 11:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Good points Ffunadan, but this is where different playing styles come into play.
LoL Very Happy

Having won a doubles competition (with Commodore) using this army, we used a different approach, so I would:-
  • Drop the fortified camp,
  • Use 2 points for fortifications
  • Make the general of the 'central' corps Ordinary
  • Make the 'outside' infantry corps a Strategist (using the extra 4 points on top of a Brilliant general)
  • Move one of the LC from the cavalry over to the 'outside' corps,
  • Consider moving one HI and one LI from the central corps to the 'outside' corps as well.
This gives you an initative of 3, which gives you better chance of picking a 'closed' terrain option of mountains or forests, with the aim of closing off as much of the table as possible. You will choose 4-5 terrain pieces covered in woods etc, allowing the Strategist to move one piece if necessary. This should provide a table where there is one 'closed' or stronger flank and a more open, or weaker flank. So, you use the 4x fortifications on your weaker flank either to block a flank march, or as a barrier to shelter the cavalry corps. (Don't forget they dismount against Elephants etc). The point of the fortifications is that they provide an additional barrier against cavalry attacks against your weak flank.

The three corps each have different roles:-
  • Strategist corps is the main attack so advances against everything. Place the additional HI behind the outermost infantry unit, with the two cavalry units in the middle, unless they are needed to cover the flank.
    The LI of this corps are used to cover the front of the HI, or just possibly to move in the difficult terrain to protect the flank of the corps.
  • The central infantry corps also places one HI behind the outermost infantry unit, (leaving a frontage of 10 HI with the other corps). The MC is also placed in the middle. This corps is intended to keep in line with the Strategist, though being commanded by an Ordinary general it may be worth activating this corps first.
    The LI of this corps cover the front of the HI, and are usually placed against the HI to save CP.
  • The cavalry corps is placed on the opposite side of the central corps, usually behind the fortifications.
    Place the LC ahead of the corps so that if it becomes unreliable this give you the best chance of it becoming reliable again.
  • The cavalry has several potential roles depending on circumstances; to delay attacks on the flanks of the two infantry corps; to act as a mobile reserve when the main battle is joined, and just possibly to combine between the two infantry corps to counter a force of Cataphracts. You may end up losing one or two cavalry units, but their role is to sell their lives dearly to slow down the enemy while your line crashes forwards.
  • The 6x LI should be placed to screen the HI as far as possible from enemy shooting, and especially attacks by Elephants. Even though you drop 2x HI behind the flanks, there will still be 4x HI that are uncovered and vulnerable, but hopefully the higher initiative will allow you to place the three corps and the LI to your best advantage.
    Their secondary role is to provide support to the HI in the later stages in the game.
The order you deploy the corps can assist your strategy. Ideally you place the corps smallest to largest (Cavalry to Strategist), which allows you to put the units in the best place possible relative to where the enemy corps and units are placed.
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fdunadan
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009
Messages: 978
MessagePosté le: Sam Oct 13, 2018 2:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Good points Ffunadan, but this is where different playing styles come into play.
LoL Very Happy .


Totally agreed !

Well, MathomHouser, think of a strategy, pick the units that fits the best and roll the dice.

Try and adapt following the results: your temper and your approach can be different than mine or Ramses's and you can even call us fools, There is not A single way of winning or playing at AdG, everybody has a different point of view and neither is inherently bad.

The selection of your troops is important, but so is the terrain (random and half-choosen by the ennemy), the opponent's army( with weakness and strenghts depending of who they fight), the placement of the corps relative to each other, and the most important, wether you can roll higher Very Happy

Try, try again.
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MathomHouser
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Inscrit le: 18 Sep 2018
Messages: 26
Localisation: Cardiff, Wales
MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 15, 2018 9:24 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I am getting the distinct impression I shouldn't Include all my commanders...!

Thank you so much for your detailed and instructive comments. I have learnt so much from this discussion.

I had not given much thought to having an extra unit in my two infantry corps, whose job is to plug the gaps. It seems a waste of cavalry's speed to use them for such a task. How about a seventh unit of Heavy Infantry?

Bear in mind that this list is for a tournament in which I am not allowed my Strategist, Arminius.

    90 GERMAN

    6 Fortifications

    1st Corps: Teutons
    Included & Unreliable: Teutobod
    2 Medium cavalry elite
    2 Light cavalry javelin

    2nd Corps: Cimbri
    Competent: Boiorix
    7 Heavy swordsmen impetuous elite
    3 Light infantry javelin

    3rd Corps: Cimrbi
    Competent: Lugius
    7 Heavy swordsmen impetuous elite
    3 Light infantry javelin

    200pts, 24 units, initiative 2



Plan:
Deploy as many forests as possible on the centre line, on the flanks.
Fill the gaps between the forests with fortifications.
Deploy infantry corps opposite target corps.
Infantry deployed in three lines: 3 LI, 6 HI, 1 LI [edit: 1 HI] (this seventh unit to plug any holes once combat begins, or grant an overlap).
March infantry forward and hope to engage enemy across the fortifications.
Cavalry corps to deal with enemy flankers, who hopefully will be delayed by the fortifications. Or, use for a Flank March?


Dernière édition par MathomHouser le Lun Oct 15, 2018 1:10 pm; édité 1 fois
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1462
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 15, 2018 12:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
LI can't 'plug gaps' in ADLG.

They exert no ZOC on enemy battle troops (so cant stop anyone in a gap turning onto a flank), and they must evade if charged by any enemy battle troops.

Their role is instead to nip forwards and add extra overlaps when you create gaps. The LI who start in front of your line will also be behind it by the time the main line gets into combat, so they can do this anyway without needing any extras dedicated to this task.
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MathomHouser
Barbare


Inscrit le: 18 Sep 2018
Messages: 26
Localisation: Cardiff, Wales
MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 15, 2018 1:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
LI can't 'plug gaps' in ADLG.


Argh, I meant Heavy Infantry!

3 LI, 6 HI, 1 HI to plug gaps.
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fdunadan
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009
Messages: 978
MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 15, 2018 5:50 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
By the way, fortifications must be deployed in your deployement zone, so not "on the centre line"
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1462
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Lun Oct 15, 2018 8:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
MathomHouser a écrit:
madaxeman a écrit:
LI can't 'plug gaps' in ADLG.


Argh, I meant Heavy Infantry!

3 LI, 6 HI, 1 HI to plug gaps.


A (medium) cavalryman is cheaper, faster (so can cover more frontage when looking for gaps) and might occasionally be able to do something else useful too !
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MathomHouser
Barbare


Inscrit le: 18 Sep 2018
Messages: 26
Localisation: Cardiff, Wales
MessagePosté le: Mer Nov 21, 2018 8:35 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I played a game!

Actually, three games. By the third, the rules were starting to come together for me, and I managed a losing draw against some Republican Romans.

My opponents questioned the value of having the MCv split amongst my corps: they would have taken a single MCv corps more seriously. They also felt I had too many light units: 2 per corps would be sufficient.

Elsewhere, I received the advice of taking Gallic allies. Remember that this list is for a tournament in which I am not allowed the German Strategist Arminius, or Samartian cavalry. Gallic allies allow me to take a Strategist and boost my initiative to 4, plus take some Medium Infantry to make use of the forests.

So here's the list I'm going to try next:

Competent
6 Heavy Swordsmen Impetuous Elite
2 Light Infantry Javelin
1 Light Cavalry Javelin

Competent
6 Heavy Swordsmen Impetuous Elite
2 Light Infantry Javelin

Strategist (Ally)
4 Medium Swordsmen Impetuous
1 Light Infantry Javelin
1 Medium Cavalry
1 Light Cavalry Javelin

200 points, 24 units, 4 Initiative

Photo: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dy3qsuc2pc1ddpa/20181121_085734.jpg?dl=0
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