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Anglo-Saxons (and Germans, Franks, Anglo-Danish, Crusaders!)
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MathomHouser
Barbare


Inscrit le: 18 Sep 2018
Messages: 26
Localisation: Cardiff, Wales
MessagePosté le: Mar Sep 18, 2018 3:24 pm    Sujet du message: Anglo-Saxons (and Germans, Franks, Anglo-Danish, Crusaders!) Répondre en citant
Hwaet everyone! I’m brand new to ADLG, and historical wargaming in general really. I have lots of ‘Black Tree Design’ 25mm Anglo-Saxon miniatures for SAGA, and I am looking to get as many of them as possible onto the field in ADLG!

Here’s my first attempt at an Anglo-Saxon army list:

147 ANGLO-SAXON

Alfred the Great, King of Wessex (Strategist)
3 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd)
5 Heavy Spearmen, Mediocre (Great Fyrd)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
2 Levy (Monks)
74pts, 11 units

Æthelred, Lord of the Mercians (Competent)
3 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd)
5 Heavy Spearmen, Mediocre (Great Fyrd)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
2 Levy (Monks)
67pts, 11 units

Æthelflæd, Lady of the Mercians (Ordinary, Included)
4 Heavy Cavalry, Elite (Mounted Hirdsmen)
2 Medium Cavalry (Welsh Vassals)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
59pts, 7 units

Total 200pts, 29 units, Initiative 2


In most wargames, I prefer quantity over quality. I find the psychological effect of seeing hordes of miniatures on the table demoralises my opponents, irrespective of the quality of the units! I have used this tactic to good effect in SAGA, where I run my Anglo-Saxons as all-levy.
I’ve gone for two big corps of 11 units, with plenty of disposable LI and Levy as screens. The third corps of Cv will either attempt to flank, or hang back to intercept enemy flankers. I feel that it’s probably wise to take a Strategist if the army list permits one.
I have pretty much replicated this list for several other time periods:

• 90 German
• 96 Franks
• 173 Anglo-Danish
• 186 Crusader

The lists are basically identical, with minor variations in Armour, Elite, and the Germans and Franks swapping spears for swords.
In other wargames, a downside would be having unwieldy amounts of troops who get in each others’ way. I expect I will want to put as little terrain down as possible, except for something to anchor one of my flanks. Perhaps a river or coastline?

Another weakness could be a lack of hard-hitting hammer units. Hopefully the Heavy Spearmen and Heavy Cavalry (Elite) will be enough to strike hard where needed.

Am I on the right track?
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fdunadan
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009
Messages: 978
MessagePosté le: Mar Sep 18, 2018 8:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Rule one: play an army that you like if you're playing for fun
Rule two: play an army that fit your style

some remarks:

* a line of 8 Spearmen (and 2 levies) will have to make 2 groups for movement (as groups cannot exceed 6 units in wide) so 2 CP for moving 2 UD... you will be slow or take risk of having gaps opening...

* the cavalry corp can handle most others Cav corps of the period by it's size, but if you're opposing Cav Bow, or Cav impact or even worse Kn, they will be a target for your opponent. And they will do nothing against an HI corp...

* your initiative is only +2, so what to do if you're defenser or attacker? as you have Spearmen and only 3 LI, effectively, open terrain is neccesary. But if your opponent manage to place bad goings and channels between, what will you do? attack in column? pass the bad terrain with your heavies? keep calm and stay in open? you need to put some time to prepare for this cases.

* the main problem is: do you play against others armies of the same period/ localisation? or do you risk to play against others armies (Mongols, Indians, Romans,...)?
Depending of your opponents, the composition may be good or awful: against Romans or HI impetuous, you'd be dead meat in 4 turns...
You can play this compo, see what happens, and adapt accordingly: can your foot troops be easily commanded? is the big cavalry corps (with O general) manoeuvrable? are the mediocre Spears an easy picnic for the opponent?

By trying and repeating, you will progress Very Happy
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1462
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 12:26 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There aren't many 'dog' armies in ADLG, but this one arguably comes close - especially in a more open competition.

Apart from the comments already made, if you are looking to make this work I'd also suggest:

- A Strategist can/should command both the cavalry command and a (6-wide) block of infantry in this list. Then you have 2 other generals to push simple blocks of foot forwards in a straight line. The Competent commander might be able then to command 2 blocks that are greater width than 6 in total, and the Ordinary just plods down the middle with a 6-wide lump of spearmen. This is where you will fight so it needs the better quality troops.
- Embedded Ordinary general in an Elite Armoured Spear in the middle of the line will make a decent cutting edge.
- You need all 4 (Sad) of the permitted LF to screen your Mediocre Spears, as otherwise they become vulnerable to shooting and end up even worse off if they take hits in the process - you don't want one with the Cavalry
- 4 Ford Ordinary Heavy Spear + 1-2 Great Fyrd per command would probably be better than your 3 + 5.
- I'd seriously look at a Viking ally to drive down the middle as then you get some really pokey foot to fix the enemy with, buying time for your width to come into its own elsewhere. You also get a few more LF and stuff to hold terrain for a while whilst your Vikings try to win in the middle
- 2-4 Elite Spearmen with Armour, or at least a couple might be better than 4 HCv. Then you use the HC and MCv to cover flanks and fill gaps as your spearwall piles forward.
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Dernière édition par madaxeman le Mer Sep 19, 2018 2:45 am; édité 1 fois
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 1:10 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think you are perhaps putting too much faith in poor quantity. 3 less units and invest in less mediocre would be healthy.

It will take a lot of discipline to wheel the flank onto the enemy as you deny where they advance and try to buy time.

You are trying to smother your opponent with soft pillows. Even you mounted has the risk of taking 3 turns to defeat enemy mounted and then join whatever fray is going on and then only with 4 UD or its another turn.

The risk of enemy impetuous foot is risk for dark age armies. Also other moderately better enemy foot abound. The issue of how you survive long enough for the smother tactic to work. I suspect you will find it a bit easier to drag out a game for a draw and not decisively win in a common time frame.

Some of your other army options have more potent options.
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Maverick2909
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017
Messages: 103
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 4:11 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There has been some very sound advice already given. I will add my 2 cents from experience.

1. Spear is over costed, avoid as your main unit type if you can.
2. I suggest using list #100 instead, taking everyone as Heavy Sword Impet, one of, if not the best point for point unit in the game. It will get a +1 vs everyone, and in about half your battles a +2 and furious charge. Also you can upgrade some to elite, and I can't stress enough how good it feels to roll a 3 with elite and jump to a 4, its huge.
3. This is the purist in me, but if you're figures look like anglo saxons, they really shouldn't be played as ancient germans.
4. Cav without a bow/crossbow is bad, don't play it.
5. Always take 2 light horse if you have the option.
6. 3 commands of 6 core units is preferable. This will optimize your movement and healing output. Fill with auxiliary troops after that (LH, LI, etc)
7. Any break point over 23 is VERY good. I have a #99 Pictish list with 28 break and its so strong. I actually feel bad playing people against that list its so stupid good.
8. Depending on your setup, terrain is your mortal friend or enemy. For an example, with my Pictish list, I load up on terrain. 4 pieces, 5 if I defend. That is an ample amount to station my medium troops in. The rest of the open space is occupied by heavy sword impet or skirmishing LH jav, which they can also do some damage if you encounter an enemy without impact.
9. Lastly and most importantly, have fun. It's a historical game, play to the history first and to win second.
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MathomHouser
Barbare


Inscrit le: 18 Sep 2018
Messages: 26
Localisation: Cardiff, Wales
MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 9:31 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
First of all, thank you so much for your comments! I have never seen a wargame forum where people respond so quickly, or in so much helpful detail.

fdunadan a écrit:
Rule one: play an army that you like if you're playing for fun
Rule two: play an army that fit your style

(...)

the main problem is: do you play against others armies of the same period/ localisation? or do you risk to play against others armies (Mongols, Indians, Romans,...)?

(...)

are the mediocre Spears an easy picnic for the opponent?


I am definitely playing the Anglo-Saxons because I love their history!

In 25mm, most of my opponents should be Dark Ages or Crusades (SAGA!).

Mediocre units seem like a headache: I'd prefer to avoid them if possible. This is a battlefield, not a picnic area!

madaxeman a écrit:
There aren't many 'dog' armies in ADLG, but this one arguably comes close - especially in a more open competition.

(...)

- A Strategist can/should command both the cavalry command and a (6-wide) block of infantry in this list. Then you have 2 other generals to push simple blocks of foot forwards in a straight line.

(...)

- You need all 4 (Sad) of the permitted LF to screen your Mediocre Spears, as otherwise they become vulnerable to shooting and end up even worse off if they take hits in the process - you don't want one with the Cavalry
- 4 Ford Ordinary Heavy Spear + 1-2 Great Fyrd per command would probably be better than your 3 + 5.
- I'd seriously look at a Viking ally to drive down the middle as then you get some really pokey foot to fix the enemy with, buying time for your width to come into its own elsewhere. You also get a few more LF and stuff to hold terrain for a while whilst your Vikings try to win in the middle
- 2-4 Elite Spearmen with Armour, or at least a couple might be better than 4 HCv. Then you use the HC and MCv to cover flanks and fill gaps as your spearwall piles forward.


Good advice about having the Strategist lead the 6 Heavy Spearmen and the Heavy Cavalry. I'm used to other wargames where you might put your cavalry as an additional flanking unit.

I had the epiphany about taking Viking allies in bed last night! The Anglo Saxon list badly needs a cutting edge. A few Dane Axes should do the trick. An ally also allows me to take some more LI screens.

Hazelbark a écrit:
I think you are perhaps putting too much faith in poor quantity. 3 less units and invest in less mediocre would be healthy.


Agreed!

Maverick2909 a écrit:
There has been some very sound advice already given. I will add my 2 cents from experience.


All interesting points, thank you. I am trying to work within the limitations of the Anglo-Saxon list: lots of spears, no mounted archers, and no light horse. It's not making life easy!

Here's attempt #2:


147 ANGLO-SAXON with allied 150 VIKING

Alfred the Great, King of Wessex (Strategist)
4 Heavy Cavalry, Elite (Hirdsmen)
6 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
110pts, 12 units

Æthelflæd, Lady of the Mercians (Ordinary)
4 Levy (Monks)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
20pts, 6 units

Guðrum, King of the Danelaw (Competent, Allied)
2 Heavy Swordsmen, Armour, Elite, Two-handed Weapons (Huscarls)
3 Heavy Swordsmen (Viking Warriors)
1 Medium Swordsmen, Impetuous, Elite (Berserkers)
1 Bowmen (Thralls)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Thralls)
70pts, 8 units

Total 200pts, 26 units, Initiative 2


Maxed out Light Infantry.

Alfred's Heavy Spearmen are the anvil in the centre, with the Heavy Cavalry dealing with any breakthroughs or flankers.

Æthelflæd's Levy anchor my exposed flank, holding off flankers until Alfred's Heavy Cavalry can reach them.

Guðrum's corps is the Dane Axe that strikes, hopefully winning the battle.

Suggestions for improvement?
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1462
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 10:23 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Your 2nd command may as well not exist - its barely a speedbump. This isn't Saga, and Levy don't hold ground in big-battle rulesets, they stand at the back hoping not to be noticed and build up your army break point in order to allow your real troops to fight on for a little longer before your army breaks. Theres even an argument here that 4 is too many, and instead you build your list to fight and then spend any spare points on levy. All this command does is lose you points cheaply

The 1 unit of Beserkers in the Viking list are a command and control headache you simply don't need. They will make the whole formation more expensive to move and will also race out of the line at the drop of a hat when the approach the enemy. With this command you're either putting it in the middle of your line in which case you dont need any Medium Foot at all, or at a pinch you are using them to sit on a flank in which case 1 Huscarl, 3 Viking HF and maybe, maybe the 2 Irish MF and a Bowman and the LF javelinman to delay a better enemy attack. I prefer HF through the middle though. That frees up the points from the Bow and the Beserker to spend on some more Saxon spears to spread your proper army out more.
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MathomHouser
Barbare


Inscrit le: 18 Sep 2018
Messages: 26
Localisation: Cardiff, Wales
MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 11:26 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
Theres even an argument here that 4 is too many, and instead you build your list to fight and then spend any spare points on levy. All this command does is lose you points cheaply

(...)

The 1 unit of Beserkers in the Viking list are a command and control headache you simply don't need.


Bah, this rabble of monks and wildmen is getting more elite all the time! What are we, Romans? Very Happy

147 ANGLO-SAXON with allied 150 VIKING

Alfred the Great, King of Wessex (Strategist)
4 Heavy Cavalry, Elite (Hirdsmen)
6 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
110pts, 12 units

Æthelflæd, Lady of the Mercians (Ordinary)
2 Medium Cavalry (British Vassals)
3 Levy (Monks)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
31pts, 7 units

Guðrum, King of the Danelaw (Competent, Allied)
2 Heavy Swordsmen, Armour, Two-handed Weapons, Elite (Huscarls)
3 Heavy Swordsmen (Viking Warriors)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Thralls)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Thralls)
58pts, 7 units

Total 199pts, 26 units, Initiative 2


Removed: 1 Levy, 1 Berserkers
Added: 2 Medium Cavalry
Swapped: 1 Bowmen for 1 Light Infantry Bow

Better?
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1462
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 12:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
How about...

Alfred the Great, King of Wessex (Strategist)
2 Heavy Cavalry, Elite (Hirdsmen)
2 Medium Cavalry - making the JC a bit wider, or just falling back.
2 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd) next to the Vikings or the other one
3 Heavy Spearmen Mediocre (Great Fyrd) - hopefully fighting enemy mounted working in support of the mounted force
2 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
78pts, 11 units

Æthelflæd, Lady of the Mercians (Ordinary) - barreling down the middle of the table or against the waterway / river
1 Heavy Spearmen Elite Armour Embedded General
1 Heavy Spearmen Elite
4 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd)
2 Levy
2 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
68pts, 8 units

Guðrum, King of the Danelaw (Competent, Allied) - barreling down the middle of the table or against the waterway / river
2 Heavy Swordsmen, Armour, Two-handed Weapons, Elite (Huscarls) Included General
3 Heavy Swordsmen (Viking Warriors)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Thralls)
54pts, 6 units

25 units, combat frontage of 20-odd
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MathomHouser
Barbare


Inscrit le: 18 Sep 2018
Messages: 26
Localisation: Cardiff, Wales
MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 1:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
How about...


Hmm, hmm, thanks Madaxeman.

How about:

Alfred the Great, King of Wessex (Strategist)
2 Heavy Cavalry, Elite (Hirdsmen)
3 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd)
1 Heavy Spearmen, Mediocre (Great Fyrd)
2 Levy (Monks)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
76pts, 10 units

Æthelred, Earl of Mercia (Competent)
2 Heavy Cavalry, Elite (Hirdsmen)
3 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd)
1 Heavy Spearmen, Mediocre (Great Fyrd)
2 Levy (Monks)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
69pts, 10 units

Guðrum, King of the Danelaw (Ordinary, Allied)
2 Heavy Swordsmen, Armour, Two-handed Weapons, Elite (Huscarls)
3 Heavy Swordsmen (Viking Warriors)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Thralls)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Thralls)
55pts, 7 units

200pts, 27 units

Am I right in thinking that 2 Medium Horse would be of less value than 2 Heavy Spearmen Mediocre?
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 2:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
MathomHouser a écrit:
Am I right in thinking that 2 Medium Horse would be of less value than 2 Heavy Spearmen Mediocre?


Maybe, maybe not. The issue is you have no maneuverability with spear once near foe. So the MC gives you some options. You just can't use them to go toe-to-toe with much better mounted.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1462
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 6:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As HBK says, we’re into “maybe†territory now. 


 Your latest list can now arguably do “a little†on both flanks with 2 HC, whereas mine is build on an assumption that you will succeed in getting a river, waterway or other dense terrain down in the setup phase on which to anchor one flank, and so you may as well stack the mounted on the other flank.

My take on this would be that if you end up with 2 open-ish flanks you are probably screwed anyway whether you have a fairly token 2 HC on each or nothing at all, so why plan for it?  Twisted Evil

The army is all about winning by grinding down the enemy frontally before you suffer too much attrition on one flank  for me, so my assumption is that you need to plan to do that. 

For a frontal “fast grind†the difference between the lists is mine has 4 Elites, 9 Ordinary and 3 Poor quality foot to do that - and a Cavalry wing to hold 1 flank plus 2 embedded Generals - you have 2 Elites, 9 Ordinary and 2 Poor, so your mix of foot is less capable of fulfilling their core task than those in my list, either cavalry wing is less capable of defending what is hopefully your only open flank, and each time you get a river or Waterway (which you always want to try for) you end up with 2 expensive Cavalry who are in the command next to the water and so have no real role other than being there to plug gaps in your line if they arise.

ADLG I find is a set where you need to execute whatever plan you have with 110% focus - dithering, or being caught in 2 minds ends up with your army being overwhelmed as there isn’t time nor table space to permit you to faff around. 

Here’s some battle reports using a fairly similar army - The Rus https://www.madaxeman.com/reports/Dogs_of_War_2017_1.php
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MathomHouser
Barbare


Inscrit le: 18 Sep 2018
Messages: 26
Localisation: Cardiff, Wales
MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 20, 2018 8:38 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Madaxeman, Hazelbark, this is the kind of advice I'm looking for! I haven't played the game yet, so am making assumptions from other wargames.

Is it reasonable to run Anglo-Saxons or Anglo-Danish without cavalry?

DARK AGES: 147 ANGLO-SAXON with allied 150 VIKING

Alfred the Great, King of Wessex (Strategist)
2 Heavy Spearmen, Armour, Elite (Hirdsmen)
3 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd)
2 Levy (Monks)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
72pts, 9 units

Æthelred, Earl of Mercia (Competent)
2 Heavy Spearmen, Armour, Elite (Hirdsmen)
3 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd)
2 Levy (Monks)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
65pts, 9 units

Guðrum, King of the Danelaw (Ordinary, Allied)
2 Heavy Swordsmen, Armour, Two-handed Weapons, Elite (Huscarls)
4 Heavy Swordsmen (Warriors)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Thralls)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Thralls)
63pts, 8 units

Total 200pts, 26 units, Initiative 2


FEUDAL AGES: 173 ANGLO-DANISH with allied 150 VIKING

Harold Godwinson, Earl of Wessex (Strategist)
2 Heavy Swordsmen, Armour, Two-handed Weapons, Elite (Huscarls)
3 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd)
2 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
72pts, 8 units

Leofwine Godwinson, Earl of Kent (Competent)
2 Heavy Swordsmen, Armour, Two-handed Weapons, Elite (Huscarls)
3 Heavy Spearmen (Select Fyrd)
2 Light Infantry Bow (Geburs)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Geburs)
65pts, 8 units

Gyrth Godwinson, Earl of East Anglia (Ordinary, Allied)
2 Heavy Swordsmen, Armour, Two-handed Weapons, Elite (Huscarls)
4 Heavy Swordsmen (Warriors)
1 Light Infantry Bow (Thralls)
1 Light Infantry Javelin (Thralls)
63pts, 8 units

Total 200pts, 24 units, Initiative 2
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 20, 2018 11:24 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
As HBK says, we’re into “maybe†territory now. 


 Your latest list can now arguably do “a little†on both flanks with 2 HC, whereas mine is build on an assumption that you will succeed in getting a river, waterway or other dense terrain down in the setup phase on which to anchor one flank, and so you may as well stack the mounted on the other flank.


You don't actually need cavalry on your flanks to protect them, more HI - even mediocre H Sp - can do that job. Taking some cavalry types in a largely foot army is really more about having an ability to move a bit faster, tactically, with some elements letting you threaten skirmishers or if you are bigger to try and get around the enemy.

HC is expensive so you have to get value out of them...at that point it becomes about army doctrine and how you plan to fight.
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MathomHouser
Barbare


Inscrit le: 18 Sep 2018
Messages: 26
Localisation: Cardiff, Wales
MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 20, 2018 11:40 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
You don't actually need cavalry on your flanks to protect them, more HI - even mediocre H Sp - can do that job. Taking some cavalry types in a largely foot army is really more about having an ability to move a bit faster, tactically, with some elements letting you threaten skirmishers or if you are bigger to try and get around the enemy.

HC is expensive so you have to get value out of them...at that point it becomes about army doctrine and how you plan to fight.


This is what I'm thinking.

Anglo/Saxon Heavy Cavalry are relatively poor: no armour, no ranged, no impact. And no Light Cavalry option to support them! If used as a dedicated cavalry corps, they are presumably sub-par.

If mixed in with my infantry instead, they're not making the most of their speed. Better to swap them for some armoured, two-handed, elite warriors, to provide the hitting power which is otherwise lacking in the two Anglo- lists.

Although bear in mind I am the OP and have yet to play a game!
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