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Slide in a charge move
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Korik
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Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 4:40 pm    Sujet du message: Slide in a charge move Répondre en citant
Charging units, as part of their charge move, are allowed to slide sideways up to 1 UD (even unmanouevrable units), this sideways shift requiring that the unit moves at least 1UD straight forward

In a recent game we had this situation:

PA
LA
LB LB

PA is a pike unit, LA a friendly light infantry unit engaged in an established melee with an opposing light infantry (LB) which has a second light infantry providing overlap support - the pike unit is in base contact with the friendly light infantry

The pike declare a charge against the light infantry providing overlap support, and because they cannot interpenetrate their friendly light infantry as it is in melee it wishes to take advantage of the allowed slide

This gives two interpretations of what happens (15mm scale):

1. Because the pike would only move forward 20mm (base depth of the friendly LI and therefore only 1/2UD) it cannot declare the charge as it will not have made the required 1UD advance
2. The LI target, being charge by HI, must evade, therefore creating sufficient space for the pike to complete it's 1UD advance, and bringing it's front edge mathematically in line with the rear edge of the engaged LI and thus counting as overlap

The side slide in the charge does tend to make pike a tad nippy, if they tried to manoeuvre the above situation it would take them four moves and 5 CP!
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Maverick2909
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 5:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Your first interpretation is correct. You do any such maneuvering fist then declare a charge at which point your opponent declares his evade. Thus the time to slide has already passed. Pike indeed are tricky, I would recommend you don’t place LI immediately in front of them.
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Korik
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 6:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks Maverick

So, any slide in the charge must allow at least 1UD of forward movement irrespective of the target's response?

The pike belonged to my opponent, thought I'd done a good job of blocking him (even though he could have always disengaged and then charged the LI)
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 6:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Slide etc is done first it is allowed as per P28 slide and p36 charge movement.
Question of 1 UD forward is tricky.
But why not do an extension of the LI /pike column as per p36 charge movement and p31 2nd paragraph.
Does the job you want
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Maverick2909
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 6:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That is correct. You did a fine job then blocking your opponents pike!  Twisted Evil
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Korik
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 10:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Dickstick. Reasonable solution but it does strike me a little of words and figures differ, circumventing the requirement of one rule by using another Smile

Perhaps the slide rule should require a 1 UD forward move OR contact with the enemy - still makes unmanouevrable units bit nippy
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Dernière édition par Korik le Lun Aoû 20, 2018 5:31 pm; édité 2 fois
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 6:55 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Slide etc is done first it is allowed as per P28 slide and p36 charge movement.
Question of 1 UD forward is tricky.
But why not do an extension of the LI /pike column as per p36 charge movement and p31 2nd paragraph.
Does the job you want

Good catch Richard, except that this move costs 2 CP because the front unit of the group is in melee.

I don't see why the pike aren't permitted to make a slide and advance 1UD. There is nothing to stop them making that advance because the LI must* evade.

* assuming they are in the open - see Troops that must evade, page 38.

Dave
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 11:09 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
-Pikemen can slide and charge, as LI must evade and PK can go ahead by 1UD wihout problem.

-Pikemen can also made a deployment for 2pip

-LI "A" can break off and pike slide and charge LI are destroyed if contacted after escape
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Korik
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 5:34 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So, the consensus, in this particular scenario, seems to be that the pike can make a valid slide and charge because the intended target MUST evade

And following on from that, if the intended target does NOT need to evade, then the pike may expend 2CP to perform an extension into contact

That sound about right?
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 5:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Both Dave and lionelrus are wrong on the 2 Command Points issue

melee has no relevance except for generals p27 and rallying p45
(don't rely on a quick look at the play sheet. the bullet point is missing for a reason . look at line above)

And it is not a difficult manoeuvre for Pike p32

forcing a one UD move would not allow charge if LI had been supported by eg HI

An amendment would be required if one wanted the LI to break off as well, but maybe that's a further discussion.
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 6:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Both Dave and lionelrus are wrong on the 2 Command Points issue

melee has no relevance except for generals p27 and rallying p45
(don't rely on a quick look at the play sheet. the bullet point is missing for a reason . look at line above)


.

correct Embarassed
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 7:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Both Dave and lionelrus are wrong on the 2 Command Points issue

melee has no relevance except for generals p27 and rallying p45

Doh!
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Korik
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 9:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think it's because an extension, like a 1/4 or 1/2 turn is a difficult manoeuvre for unmanoeuvrable troops, whereas pike only count 1/4 or 1/2 turns as difficult (page 32, 'Particular cases')

I would have thought it logical to include extension and contraction for pike in there as well for consistency
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Maverick2909
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 21, 2018 6:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I contend they are wrong on the slide and charge part as well. What if I had an HI who had to wheel 1 UD before I charged, then slid, then charged a unit who was 20mm away but evaded. I then proceed to roll a 1 and can’t move the UD forward.

Or what if I have the same scenario but instead of an LI it’s an LH. He *can* evade but that doesn’t mean he will. 

No no, I contend the one UD forward minimum movement condition must be met before a charge is declared. 
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Maverick2909
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 21, 2018 6:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As to the extension, I thought that couldn’t be combined with a charge movement? Correct me if I’m wrogg but the only movement allowed before or during a charge maneuver is a wheel, slide, or straigh ahead. I’ll confer with the rules book when I get home.
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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