Art De La Guerre

[Korik]

Valid point but we're actually talking about a move into contact here, not a simple expansion

In this particular case, if it's not a charge then the LI don't have to evade, and the pike can't move into contact

Does sort of question why heavier troops have to charge to make LI move - perhaps it should be a simple case of the heavier troops making a normal move with the LI obliged to fall back in front of them, maintaining a minimum 1UD distance

This would obviously benefit the heavier troops whilst allowing the LI to maintain their harassing fire
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Korik

[Dickstick]

It is an expansion and it is a charge but with a limited move. If the LI were to stand they are auto killed so they auto evade. There is no possibility or an adjusted move because of the existing contract of the group. Expansion is a group move .

As to your last idea.
Better to charge to stop the fire.
How is LI falling back and still shooting an advantage to the HI?
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Player 747 don't call me Jumbo

[Hazelbark]

[Korik]

Hi Jumbo

See you point - 'charge' and 'move to contact' tend to blur at times but I see where you are saying that the expansion move isn't actually a 'charge' but a simple move to contact

So, presumably, if the target weren't LI then no one would get any charge bonus factors as it's basically a continuing melee which is becoming broader, same was as FoG Renaissance deals with a continuing melee

The idea of moving LI without a charge was just to remove the need to go through the charge mechanism with all the roll up/roll down business
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Korik

[Dickstick]

It is a charge but the limit to movement is to the front of the group.
If no one was already in contact there would be a die roll. But in your example the group starts with contact so all enemy does not evade just some.
Die roll is for when all enemy evades.
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Player 747 don't call me Jumbo

[Hazelbark]

Something is badly morphing in this discussion.

First throw out FOGR rules irrelevant as precedent.

Second any move by a unit not in contact to a unit in contact is either a charge or a move to support position. Note a move to support position can also be a charge and functionally is.

So any unit moving from an unengaged position to its front edge contact with another is charging and gets charge effects as outlined. *(obviously there are specific enumerated situations where they don't get charge effects, i.e. they are joining an existing melee as a flank or rear contact)

The basic example of where you don't get charge effects, is when a unit is already in contact and it is conforming for free or by CP into a melee position.

This situation of a 2nd rank unit coming out and contacting an enemy it was not in contact with is a charge. FULL STOP. It make also assume it will end in support if it knows the LI will evade, but that does not make it a non-charge.

[Ramses II]

Well said.
FYI, the definition of "Charge" is on p50, along with definitions of "Support", and the "Main unit" in a melee.
Well worth reading this page very carefully.

Point is that, while similar to other DBM rules, AdlG is generally both simpler and usually clearer.

[Korik]

Sorry, appreciate that it's semantics but I can't see where a charge ends when the charging unit is in a position to provide overlap support to a friend already engaged in melee

Having said that, I have belatedly noticed on page 36, under the definition of charge movement, that an extension into contact is specifically counted as a charge move. If, however, under the original conditions of the question, the LI evade, does the charge take precedence, and therefore requires at least 1 UD forward movement (assuming infantry), or does the extension take priority and the 'charge' therefore ends with the moving unit providing overlap support

The FOGR reference was valid if the extension was merely a move into contact rather than an actual charge
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Korik

[Dickstick]

Extension takes priority as it's the move done.
The pike unit took its full move to get to the front line position.
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Player 747 don't call me Jumbo

[Hazelbark]

[Korik]

Hi Hazel

The FAQ says
Q : When a unit moves to provide corner or flank support to a friendly unit, must it stop at first contact with the enemy?
A : No, it can continue to slide along the side of the opponent as long as it respects all movement and ZoC rules. This movement must not be confused with a charge to initiate a melee, which must stop and conform at the first contact (see page 52)

However, I can't see on page 52 where this is specifically covered, nor is it expressly mentioned in the amendments

So, if I have a unit opposite a 1base width gap in the enemy front rank, and which won't cross any ZOC, I can't advance that unit past the front edge of the enemy unit because that would involve a contact which is purely a point contact on the base corners?
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Korik

[Ramses II]

[Ramses II]

[Korik]

Hi Ramses

Checked the FAQ as you suggested and, in the 'Charge and corner-to-corner contact' the cavalry unit A CAN charge past the enemy infantry unit C, effectively ignoring the enemy unit B but presumably only because it starts it's charge move ALREADY in corner to corner contact with B; if unit A were NOT already in corner to corner contact then it WOULD have to stop and conform to B
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Korik

[Dickstick]

Hi Karik.
I would like to say your presumption just adds difficulty that's not there but....

Looking at the FAQ 1 Sept 2018 just in french at the moment there is a diagram of examples which looks to me (my french vocabulary is limited ) to answer your confusion.

So perhaps others think it is not as clear as I think I see it!

Have a look or wait and see?
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Player 747 don't call me Jumbo