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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Korik
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 1:37 am    Sujet du message: Flank contact Répondre en citant
Probably been well covered but I'm fairly new to the rules so could someone clarify a few points about flank contact please?

1. Side A has three HC in a group three wide, each element in front edge base contact with a corresponding element of side B's HC in a continuing melee

In Side A's melee phase, the centre HC of side A is routed, leaving the centre HC of side B (B2) unengaged other than on a corner to corner contact with the two remaining side A HC

In side B's move can B2 wheel onto the flank of one of the remaining side A HC or is it limited by the rule requiring that a unit moving to flank contact must start in the target unit's flank zone?

2. Two opposing elements end the melee phase in side edge to side edge contact. In the next player's move can he make a quarter turn and claim flank contact with the enemy element, or does the contacted element simple conform to it's flank and fight a standard melee without penalty

3. A light cavalry javelin element moves into contact with the rear face of a bow armed foot unit which is itself in front edge contact with the rear face of another unit (which is fighting to it's front). As I understand it:
A. The light cavalry javelin would not get it's javelin bonus because this is not a charge (the foot being already in combat) but would get a +1 factor for the rear attack.
B. The foot unit would not drop a cohesion, nor would it's base factor drop to zero, but it would not receive a +1 bonus for fighting mounted
C. The effect of the foot unit's contact with the rear of the enemy element would continue for the current melee phase (enemy element base factor 0 and no additional factors such as 2HW) but the foot bow would not count as support in that melee

4. A unit attempting to conform onto the flank of an enemy element cannot conform into a second unit's ZOC. If the unit which is blocking the conform are light troops are they effectively pushed out of the way the minimum necessary? Does this leave them in contact with the unit which displaced them, and if so, does this flank contact have it's normal effect (loss of any 'special' factors)?

Any assistance gratefully received
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 12:05 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
Korik a écrit:
Probably been well covered but I'm fairly new to the rules so could someone clarify a few points about flank contact please?

1. Side A has three HC in a group three wide, each element in front edge base contact with a corresponding element of side B's HC in a continuing melee

In Side A's melee phase, the centre HC of side A is routed, leaving the centre HC of side B (B2) unengaged other than on a corner to corner contact with the two remaining side A HC

In side B's move can B2 wheel onto the flank of one of the remaining side A HC or is it limited by the rule requiring that a unit moving to flank contact must start in the target unit's flank zone?



The rules requires and rules are rules.
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 12:11 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
Korik a écrit:


2. Two opposing elements end the melee phase in side edge to side edge contact. In the next player's move can he make a quarter turn and claim flank contact with the enemy element, or does the contacted element simple conform to it's flank and fight a standard melee without penalty


The conforming happens during the moving phas following the melee. The player in phase can choose
1) conforming freely but loosing 1st round charge bonus as impact, javelin and so on.
2) wheeling and charge for 1 pip.
The opponent, if he survives, must conform after melee.
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 12:19 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
Korik a écrit:


3. A light cavalry javelin element moves into contact with the rear face of a bow armed foot unit which is itself in front edge contact with the rear face of another unit (which is fighting to it's front). As I understand it:
A. The light cavalry javelin would not get it's javelin bonus because this is not a charge (the foot being already in combat) but would get a +1 factor for the rear attack.
B. The foot unit would not drop a cohesion, nor would it's base factor drop to zero, but it would not receive a +1 bonus for fighting mounted
C. The effect of the foot unit's contact with the rear of the enemy element would continue for the current melee phase (enemy element base factor 0 and no additional factors such as 2HW) but the foot bow would not count as support in that melee


answers may depending what you mean about bow armed foot. I supposed is a medium swordman bow (call MSB in following).
A yes
B yes, but MSB has no +1 bounus against mounted at first round, only LMI bow has.
C yes
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 12:34 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
Korik a écrit:


4. A unit attempting to conform onto the flank of an enemy element cannot conform into a second unit's ZOC. If the unit which is blocking the conform are light troops are they effectively pushed out of the way the minimum necessary? Does this leave them in contact with the unit which displaced them, and if so, does this flank contact have it's normal effect (loss of any 'special' factors)?

Any assistance gratefully received


If the unit blocking conformation is a light trop, then:
1) your own troop is itself a light troop, so you have to chargethe blocking light troop hoping it's evade and you can then conform to the flank.
2) if your own troop is not light, so light troops have no zoc (in open terrain). Then either lihgt troop touchs your own troop or not after conforming.
If not, no problem. If the light troop is infantry, it must evade in the open. If it's cavalry, it's pushed away.
3) if all of this hapens in rought or difficult terrains, LI has a zoc and back to 1).
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fdunadan
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 2:20 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
Korik a écrit:


4. A unit attempting to conform onto the flank of an enemy element cannot conform into a second unit's ZOC. If the unit which is blocking the conform are light troops are they effectively pushed out of the way the minimum necessary? Does this leave them in contact with the unit which displaced them, and if so, does this flank contact have it's normal effect (loss of any 'special' factors)?

Any assistance gratefully received


If the unit blocking conformation is a light trop, then:
1) your own troop is itself a light troop, so you have to chargethe blocking light troop hoping it's evade and you can then conform to the flank.
2) if your own troop is not light, so light troops have no zoc (in open terrain). Then either lihgt troop touchs your own troop or not after conforming.
If not, no problem. If the light troop is infantry, it must evade in the open. If it's cavalry, it's pushed away.
3) if all of this hapens in rought or difficult terrains, LI has a zoc and back to 1).


For answer 2), if LH are not destroyed in clear terrain by heavier troops, are they still compelled to be pushed??
A LI will have to evade since contact is forbidden with heavier troops, but LH can stand the ground...
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Korik
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Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 3:15 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
Korik a écrit:


2. Two opposing elements end the melee phase in side edge to side edge contact. In the next player's move can he make a quarter turn and claim flank contact with the enemy element, or does the contacted element simple conform to it's flank and fight a standard melee without penalty


The conforming happens during the moving phas following the melee. The player in phase can choose
1) conforming freely but loosing 1st round charge bonus as impact, javelin and so on.
2) wheeling and charge for 1 pip.
The opponent, if he survives, must conform after melee.


Thanks for coming back on this one

Regarding option 1, would the enemy unit contacted suffer the usual penalties (assuming the contacting unit isn't light) i.e. base factor zero and down one cohesion level?

And on option 2, I thought you couldn't charge a unit if you were already in contact?
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Korik
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 3:16 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
Korik a écrit:


3. A light cavalry javelin element moves into contact with the rear face of a bow armed foot unit which is itself in front edge contact with the rear face of another unit (which is fighting to it's front). As I understand it:
A. The light cavalry javelin would not get it's javelin bonus because this is not a charge (the foot being already in combat) but would get a +1 factor for the rear attack.
B. The foot unit would not drop a cohesion, nor would it's base factor drop to zero, but it would not receive a +1 bonus for fighting mounted
C. The effect of the foot unit's contact with the rear of the enemy element would continue for the current melee phase (enemy element base factor 0 and no additional factors such as 2HW) but the foot bow would not count as support in that melee


answers may depending what you mean about bow armed foot. I supposed is a medium swordman bow (call MSB in following).
A yes
B yes, but MSB has no +1 bounus against mounted at first round, only LMI bow has.
C yes


Sorry, did mean LMI bow and thanks for the clarification, although according to the definition of purely bow armed infantry they are all (excepting LI in all cases) LMI and receive a +1 bonus for shooting at mounted and also a first round +1 bonus when charged frontally by mounted' so presumably you ignore the bow armament of the unit in melee and just treat them as medium swordsmen Smile
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Dernière édition par Korik le Sam Aoû 04, 2018 9:24 pm; édité 1 fois
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Korik
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 3:23 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
Korik a écrit:


4. A unit attempting to conform onto the flank of an enemy element cannot conform into a second unit's ZOC. If the unit which is blocking the conform are light troops are they effectively pushed out of the way the minimum necessary? Does this leave them in contact with the unit which displaced them, and if so, does this flank contact have it's normal effect (loss of any 'special' factors)?

Any assistance gratefully received


If the unit blocking conformation is a light trop, then:
1) your own troop is itself a light troop, so you have to chargethe blocking light troop hoping it's evade and you can then conform to the flank.
2) if your own troop is not light, so light troops have no zoc (in open terrain). Then either lihgt troop touchs your own troop or not after conforming.
If not, no problem. If the light troop is infantry, it must evade in the open. If it's cavalry, it's pushed away.
3) if all of this hapens in rought or difficult terrains, LI has a zoc and back to 1).


Thanks for the reply

so, in scenario one does this mean that a charging unit can, if it's opponents evade, ignore the minimum 1 or 2 UD advance but instead conform with it's front edge contacting the flank of a second enemy unit?

Option 2 is an interesting point; if the blocking unit is LI in the open and the conforming unit is not light troops then the LI react as if charged?
And continuing on this point, if the blockers are LC they are simply pushed back the minimum necessary to allow the enemy unit to conform; as this would leave the LC in front edge contact with the flank of the conforming unit does the conforming unit have to fight against the LC whilst still affecting the base factor of the unit with which it is in contact?
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Korik
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 3:25 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:
Korik a écrit:
Probably been well covered but I'm fairly new to the rules so could someone clarify a few points about flank contact please?

1. Side A has three HC in a group three wide, each element in front edge base contact with a corresponding element of side B's HC in a continuing melee

In Side A's melee phase, the centre HC of side A is routed, leaving the centre HC of side B (B2) unengaged other than on a corner to corner contact with the two remaining side A HC

In side B's move can B2 wheel onto the flank of one of the remaining side A HC or is it limited by the rule requiring that a unit moving to flank contact must start in the target unit's flank zone?



The rules requires and rules are rules.


Succinct and clear, please accept my thanks for the clarification (good manners require and good manners are good manners Smile)
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 3:57 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
lionelrus a écrit:

The conforming happens during the moving phas following the melee. The player in phase can choose
1) conforming freely but loosing 1st round charge bonus as impact, javelin and so on.
2) wheeling and charge for 1 pip.
The opponent, if he survives, must conform after melee.



Regarding 2.
To be clear it is not a "charge" in the sense of getting any first round abilities like furious charge or impact +1. You only get a melee. See FAQ p 13.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 4:06 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
Korik a écrit:


Thanks for coming back on this one

Regarding option 1, would the enemy unit contacted suffer the usual penalties (assuming the contacting unit isn't light) i.e. base factor zero and down one cohesion level?

And on option 2, I thought you couldn't charge a unit if you were already in contact?


option 1 if you read the whole section on p 59 and two sides in movement will inflict the cohesion loss. What we all did as beginners is read one paragraph and stop which led us to asking the same clarification you have asked. So the rule of thumb: two sides, not light units inflict cohesion and base factor zero. If the 2nd side is contact resulting from a pursuit, no cohesion loss, but still zero factor.

option 2 you are correct see my note. The terms charge, conform, and move to support are often used a little loosely especially across multiple languages, continents and time zones.

PS Have you see the FAQ? It has been built up quite a lot over time.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 5:30 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
fdunadan a écrit:
lionelrus a écrit:
Korik a écrit:


4. A unit attempting to conform onto the flank of an enemy element cannot conform into a second unit's ZOC. If the unit which is blocking the conform are light troops are they effectively pushed out of the way the minimum necessary? Does this leave them in contact with the unit which displaced them, and if so, does this flank contact have it's normal effect (loss of any 'special' factors)?

Any assistance gratefully received


If the unit blocking conformation is a light trop, then:
1) your own troop is itself a light troop, so you have to chargethe blocking light troop hoping it's evade and you can then conform to the flank.
2) if your own troop is not light, so light troops have no zoc (in open terrain). Then either lihgt troop touchs your own troop or not after conforming.
If not, no problem. If the light troop is infantry, it must evade in the open. If it's cavalry, it's pushed away.
3) if all of this hapens in rought or difficult terrains, LI has a zoc and back to 1).


For answer 2), if LH are not destroyed in clear terrain by heavier troops, are they still compelled to be pushed??
A LI will have to evade since contact is forbidden with heavier troops, but LH can stand the ground...


This is depending of charge direction and initial point of contact.
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 5:35 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
lionelrus a écrit:

The conforming happens during the moving phas following the melee. The player in phase can choose
1) conforming freely but loosing 1st round charge bonus as impact, javelin and so on.
2) wheeling and charge for 1 pip.
The opponent, if he survives, must conform after melee.



Regarding 2.
To be clear it is not a "charge" in the sense of getting any first round abilities like furious charge or impact +1. You only get a melee. See FAQ p 13.


oups, it's seems you are right. Units in contact side by side cannot charge each other. Surprising, but well...
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Sam Aoû 04, 2018 5:37 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Flank contact Répondre en citant
[quote="Korik"][quote="lionelrus"]
Korik a écrit:


And on option 2, I thought you couldn't charge a unit if you were already in contact?

It's not exactly that. ie, you may be in contact corner to corner and charge a unit on your front.
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