Art De La Guerre

AlanCutner · Tribun Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014 Messages: 710 Localisation: Scotland

I've had this ruled in different ways over the last few weeks. Would appreciate views.

A target unit is part in some bad going, with the rear part of its base poking out into the good going. A friendly mounted unit is in a position to charge that part of its side edge still in the good going. The question is whether the charging unit has to conform into the bad going. Note there is no problem with move distance for conforming even allowing for reduced movement in the bad going, especially as theres an extra 1UD allowed for confirming.

Relevant rules appear to be

P54 Unable to Conform 2nd para.
If a unit attacks an enemy on the flank or rear, it must conform correctly so that it can be considered a valid attack on the flank or rear. If a unit is unable to conform, the contact is illegal and therefore not allowed.

P52 Conforming 2nd para.
Conforming is mandatory unless it forces a friendly or enemy unit to enter terrain in which the unit is penalised in melee. In the last case the player may choose whether to confirm his units or not.

So two options
1. The attacking unit has to conform into disadvantaging terrain for it to be a valid flank charge.
2. It doesn't have to conform into the disadvantaging terrain. Not doing so is still conforming 'correctly' as per P52. This still counts as a flank charge.

Which?

Longtooth · Post� le: Dim Juil 22, 2018 10:54 am Sujet du message:

Option 2 is correct

ethan · Signifer Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 347

I believe option 1 is correct in this case.

Ramses II · Post� le: Dim Juil 22, 2018 8:27 pm Sujet du message:

P54 unable to conform specifically refers to Conforming to the front of the enemy unit, and the picture below gives an example.

The second paragraph under this section states “if a unit attacks an enemy on the flank or rear, it must conform correctly so . . . “

So in your example, the unit must conform and end up in terrain that penalises it in melee.

Longtooth · Post� le: Dim Juil 22, 2018 9:05 pm Sujet du message:

I still disagree. Although page 54 says that units attacking on the flank or rear must conform 'correctly', the 'correct' procedure does not require friendly units to suffer a terrain penalty.

fdunadan · Tribun Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009 Messages: 978

The "must conform correctly to the flank or rear" part is here to prevent a unit charging a unit with only some millimeters in contact. If you want to contact an opponent on it's flank or rear, you must have the place to do so.

In this case, there is no other unit or impassable terrain preventing the mounted to conform. It COULD conform correctly (as page 54). Since the fight is partially in clear and paretially in bad terrain, the mounted is not forced to conform (as page 52)

In most occurrence, the spirit of the rule is to be respected. It"s a French rule, so no pesky shenanigans intended Very Happy

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Zoltan · Post� le: Lun Juil 23, 2018 1:58 am Sujet du message:

No doubt someone will shortly trot out that cheap shot of “Barkerism” yaddah yaddah (like it’s a bad thing 😆).

P.52 Conforming
This provides the general rules for conforming, and plainly states:
1. You must conform unless one of the two exceptions apply (leaving the table or entering disadvantaging terrain)

2. How you conform, for each edge

3. It is optional to conform if one of the two exceptions would apply (leaving the table or entering disadvantaging terrain).

P.54 Unable to conform
This provides the rules for when conforming is IMPOSSIBLE. i.e. the phasing player is not able to either follow the general obligation to conform under P.52 or is unable to exercise an option available under P.52.

The second para on P.54 is saying:
In those circumstances where it is IMPOSSIBLE to conform, you can’t partially contact a flank or rear and count that as a legal contact. This rule/situation has nothing to do per se with the general conforming rules on P.52.

In other words:
1. If it’s IMPOSSIBLE to conform (regardless of the reason) then you can’t contact a flank or rear.

2. If it’s POSSIBLE to conform but doing so would make you leave the table or enter disadvantaging terrain, then you may opt not to fully conform. But it counts as if you had fully conformed.

Move on, nothing to see here. Another fine example of Gallic rules subtlety.
😎

Ramses II · Post� le: Lun Juil 23, 2018 9:48 am Sujet du message:

Thanks Zoltan, that seems clear enough.

That said however, I have never seen this occur in play, and I presume that if the target survives it will get dragged out of the terrain and rotated to face it’s attacker.

Nasty.

Brave Coeur · Post� le: Lun Juil 23, 2018 11:38 am Sujet du message:

Zoltan · Post� le: Lun Juil 23, 2018 12:41 pm Sujet du message:

@Brave Coeur

Looks like you are referring to the rule book amendment (not FAQ) on P. 56 that says:

“If a unit is on the flank of an enemy but can not conform in a legal manner it can always fight against the front of the enemy.”

It’s not clear if that means:
1. Move the unconforming attacking unit from the flank and conform it to the front of the enemy (teleport), or

2. Leave the attacking unit unconformed on the flank but calculate the melee as if it was a frontal combat.

I suspect it means 2.

I guess if there is already another attacking unit conformed on the front, this second attacking unit (that could not conform with the flank) would simply count as +1 support?

Brave Coeur · Post� le: Lun Juil 23, 2018 3:46 pm Sujet du message:

Ramses II · Post� le: Lun Juil 23, 2018 4:05 pm Sujet du message:

So Bravecoeur, you disagree with Ffunadan who thinks this is permissible?

lionelrus · Post� le: Lun Juil 23, 2018 7:56 pm Sujet du message:

brave coeur is right. Contacting unit by flank or rear must conform; and may choose to fight front to front ( teleport like it has been said) if he can't conforms.
But a unit conforming in bad field can conform, and then must do it and cannot choose to fight by front.
Last thing, many player think the first unit contacting is the main fighter. This only is right when there is no unit in the front. In all other cases, yhe main fighter is the unit fighting in the front.
If a unit is already conformed in the front, all rules about fighting in 2 directions applies, as cohesion loose, having no factor and loosing javelin, support and so on...
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Zoltan · Post� le: Lun Juil 23, 2018 8:24 pm Sujet du message:

If there is already a unit conformed to the front face of the enemy when I contact it on its rear/flank, then there is no space to “teleport” onto the front face; the space is already occupied.

So do you say:
1. I MUST conform to the flank/rear even if it means I enter disordering terrain?

2. I am NOT permitted to attack the enemy on its flank/rear because I will not be able to make a legal conformation (because I chose not to enter the terrain and there is no place for me to teleport to)?

Longtooth · Post� le: Lun Juil 23, 2018 9:14 pm Sujet du message:

I think there are two distinct cases here:

In case 1, the enemy unit is already engaged to his front and a second enemy unit wishes to engage his rear. In this scenario, I can see the logic for making the charging unit conform into terrain.

In case 2, the enemy unit is not otherwise engaged and an enemy unit wishes to charge his rear. In this scenario, the charging unit should not be forced into terrain.

Jesse