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Pg41 exceptions to uncontrolled charge, terrain disadvantage
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Lun Juin 11, 2018 9:23 pm    Sujet du message: Pg41 exceptions to uncontrolled charge, terrain disadvantage Répondre en citant
I think Julian and I a found a difference between French and English. In the English amendments, page 41, exceptions to uncontrolled charge, last bullet "if as a result of the charge move the unit ends up in terrain that would inflict a combat penalty on it".

For me this means that units that are already in bad terrain will still charge, since they do not end up in it "as a result of the charge", they are already in it even without a charge. So I stood just outside the terrain, waiting to be charged with a combat advantage since my opponent would hit me without getting fully out of the terrain.

Then I was shown the French version of the rule which appear to be subtly but importantly differs. In French you do not charge if following the charge ("suit" I think was the actual word) you end up "in combat in terrain" or some such phrase, so an extra condition compared to english.

Ie English in terrain which disadvantages
In French in combat in terrain which disadvantages

Views please from anyone who has the French copy?
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Zoltan
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Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 12, 2018 12:11 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So the French reading appears to be something like:

You don’t have to make an uncontrolled charge if you will end the charge in terrain that gives you a combat disadvantage.

This covers:
Start in good terrain; end in bad terrain
Start in bad terrain; end in bad terrain

If you start in bad terrain but will end in good terrain then you are still subject to an uncontrolled charge.
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 12, 2018 6:43 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If one is not fully out of terrain, is one not still in it?
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 12, 2018 8:09 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
agreed but I positioned myself so i was outside with no disadvantage and my opponentvwould still be partially in with the minus 1
Very Happy


does anyone have the French text, I am pretty sure it talked about being in combat with a disadvantage , rather than being in terrain that gives a combat disadvantage even if you are not actually in combat
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Commodore
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2012
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Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 12, 2018 10:23 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
agreed but I positioned myself so i was outside with no disadvantage and my opponentvwould still be partially in with the minus 1
Very Happy


does anyone have the French text, I am pretty sure it talked about being in combat with a disadvantage , rather than being in terrain that gives a combat disadvantage even if you are not actually in combat


The French booklet says p41 last bullet (modified by addendum) that :"an unit is not subject to uncontrolled charge if, at the end of the charge move, it will be in a terrain who gives a combat disadvantage.
So if an impetuous unit is already in a terrain who penalized it, it is only subject to an uncontrolled charge if its move permit to completely move outside this terrain. So to be in situation to fight without terrain disadvantage.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 12, 2018 12:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
thanks Hubert, so do you agree with my reading that this is very different to the English version were I believe that a unit already in disadvantageous terrain would still charge into a contact in such disadvantageous terrain.

if so what do we do about the differance?
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Commodore
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 12, 2018 1:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
thanks Hubert, so do you agree with my reading that this is very different to the English version were I believe that a unit already in disadvantageous terrain would still charge into a contact in such disadvantageous terrain.

if so what do we do about the differance?

Yes it seems that the English booklet reading may be confusing. It is clear that the fact that an unit is starting its move in bad terrain is not the point. Only the end of the charge move is to be considered. If the English sentence meaning is different, it has to be modified. Be advise, this specific rule point has been modified by the last year rule amend.
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Gingerdave
Barbare


Inscrit le: 15 Sep 2017
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 12, 2018 4:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
What about hills?

If we have a impetuous unit (A) at the bottom of a hill, with a unit that would normally trigger an uncontrolled charge (B) on the top of the hill, would A make an uncontrolled charge?

My read of it it that A would have to charge B, as A is not penalised by entering the terrain - instead, B gets a bonus. However I've met some people who think that there is an effective penalty on A - in other words, A does not have to make an uncontrolled charge into a situation where the terrain favours B.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 12, 2018 5:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
yep I have used the amended text

"if as a result of the charge move the unit ends up in terrain that would inflict a combat penalty on it". 

so UK considers start and end position, by using the phrase "as a result of" rather than some simpler expression such as "after"
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Maverick2909
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017
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Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 12, 2018 5:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This actually came up in our game last Saturday. Per how the English book reads, it is very clear that if you started in bad terrain and the charge ended in bad terrain you will be making an uncontrolled charge. We felt this wasn’t right, but by the way it’s worded that’s technically how it should be played until there’s and errata.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Juin 12, 2018 7:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I am not sure there is a big "right" or "wrong" whichever way it is defined.

Troops that want to charge are going to want to. So if they are in bad and charge further in the bad terrain, why does that discomfort them unusually?
If they are on the edge of terrain they are ready to charge out. If you don't want them to charge out, hide deeper in the terrain.

The argument to the why they don't charge in, well that is a noticeable obstacle and change to the situation.

Now I could reverse this arguments as well. I think both ways are justifiable. The chief issue is for both players to understand when the game starts.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 13, 2018 12:47 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Guys 
  1. That anomaly has already been noted and corrected in the official amendments. So you consider state of the unit at the end of its move, per the French rules. 
    If possible you should apply the relevant amendment patches and corrections to your rule books - though I agree that is rather untidy.  
  2. Gingerdave, you raise a very interesting question. I am unclear whether giving an opponent a +1 is the equivalent of inflicting a combat penalty on a unit. I will check with the TB.
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Maverick2909
Légionaire


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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 13, 2018 1:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks Ramses, we should have thought to check the FAQ/errata sheets. 
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 13, 2018 10:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Sorry Gavin but I disagree

The rules text I quote comes from new amendments and I think it still causes the problem. Ie if you are in disadvantageous terrain at the start and make an uncontrolled move which ends in combat in disadvantageous terrain, you did not end at disadvantage as a result of the uncontrolled advance, you already had it before the advance.

However if you add the French bit about a charge and ending in combat following, rather that "as a result of" you get a different answer since it nolonger considers the starting state

ie English text has to consider BOTH starting and ending state, looking at the change
French text considers only end state
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mer Juin 13, 2018 10:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
While I understand your objection to the term “ends upâ€, and agree it is probably superfluous I think this may be a split hair too many, no?

The point is that the intent is clear - the starting point is irrelevant it is the end position that is key here. 
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