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ZOC Query
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 14, 2018 2:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Remember Alan, you only need to observe the effects of ZoC and the most threatening enemy etc during the move to contact (and the continuing charge move if it occurs). 

Once formal movement ceases and conformation occurs, ZoC effects are ignored. The only issue at that point is the type of contact, whether it is legal, in disordering terrain etc. The affected units, both friend and foe are then adjusted accordingly. 

The same applies to your original diagram, if the Cataphracts can wheel and advance such that they contact the cavalry in a line like this diagram (with A just entering the contentious ZoCs of X/Y), then the line just conforms with Y as required, in way similar to this diag
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 15, 2018 4:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
Background (and apologies for not being clear on this before) -
1. Group W-Z starts roughly parallel to A-D with W roughly opposite B.
2. Group W-Z wheels at start of move upto the ZOC of D, then moves straight forward into the ZOC (Z moving closer to D within the ZOC).
3. There is sufficient move distance for the wheel and move to contact if effects of ZOC's are ignored.
4. The aim of the moving player is to contact with W-Z against each of A-D with a single CP.

I think, and my opponent has now concurred, that such a charge is not legal due to the ZOC effects as discussed in this thread. However it is interesting that different views have been presented suggesting the rules aren't necessarily clear cut.

I still think this is a storm in a teacup.

You have stated that group W-Z starts roughly parallel to A-D and that the objective is to end with W-Z conformed with A-D mano a mano. Because you have started parallel (and outside any A-D ZOCs) simply slide W-Z up to 1 UD to its left before moving straight forward in the charge. Then use the conformation rule to neatly align.

Why complicate a simple situation with obtuse theoretical wheeling and ZOC scenarios?! Isn't this one on Dan's simple cases of saying to your opponent, "Nah don't do the wheel thing, just slide sideways then move straight forward to achieve your objective of neat alignment."?
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 15, 2018 8:21 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The charge couldn't be a slide and go forward because of the initial point raised that W would enter ZOC of other troops (crossbow in original diagram). The angled charge was an attempt to get around that.

However thanks to all the responses. I think we got to a useful conclusion.
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Black Prince
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2016
Messages: 290
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 16, 2018 1:24 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If you go back the original picture the Xbow prevents W charging A because of ZOC issues wheeling W-Z to avoid the Xbow you hit ZOC geometry issues on the other side which in isolation seem very Barkerese but if you look at the whole picture W can not charge A as it move past the front of the Xbow exposing its flank. There is no way to sneak W into contact with A.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 17, 2018 4:32 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Back to the original photograph (the subsequent simplified diagram was probably a distraction). One of the main questions raised was whether or not the positioning of X and Y (a kinked line) effectively prevented A charging anyone. It doesn't seem to be within the spirit of these rules to prevent a combat so surely the charging player should simply chose between the frying pan and the fire?

1. Contact the crossbowmen X with the prospect of being double overlapped next move (if Y choses to conform with X) or charged in the flank by Y
2. Contact the cavalry Y (or "Z") with the prospect of being charged in the flank by crossbowmen X next move
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Black Prince
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2016
Messages: 290
MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 17, 2018 5:02 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think option 1 the knights can charge the xbow but no the cav,
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