Art De La Guerre

kevinj · Post� le: Lun F�v 12, 2018 9:05 am Sujet du message:

As I'm reading it W-Z can continue to advance towards A-D as Y and Z which are in the ZOC of D will continue to get closer to it (P34). Z will hit D first, at which point it is engaged in melee and ceases to exert a ZOC (P35). C will than become Ys most threatening enemy so it can continue to charge it.

Commodore · Post� le: Lun F�v 12, 2018 9:36 am Sujet du message:

Nightingale87 · Gladiateur Inscrit le: 06 Avr 2017 Messages: 44

I see no problema with the whole group making a pivot to en up completely aligned with the other group and then move foth until contact. After that...they will confotm to aligned corner to cornet with the most threatening enemy.

Zoltan · Post� le: Mar F�v 13, 2018 7:55 am Sujet du message:

Nightingale87 · Gladiateur Inscrit le: 06 Avr 2017 Messages: 44

Commodore is technically right. You cannot (as per FAQ p.3) charge in a straight line, because Y would exit a ZoC.

However, I think there is no problema in charging with the whole group. You make a pivot move keeping Z´s left front corner fix and move from W´s front left corner aligning both groups. Thus preventing Y from getting out of the current ZoC of D and at the same time being in the ZoC of C. Then move forward with the whole group, and after comformation with "the most threatening enemy" you will end up having W vs A, X vs V, Y vs C and Z vs D.

I see no problema whatsoever with that.

AlanCutner · Post� le: Mar F�v 13, 2018 12:02 pm Sujet du message:

Those who are saying the charging line can pivot are ignoring that the line has already moved to get to the position in the diagram. Wheels are only allowed at the start of a charge and not part way through.

Sorry if anyone thinks I'm just being awkward. But saying 'common sense' should be applied doesn't really help if in a game rules are quoted that stop a 'common sense' move.

I think the answer is that its the responsibility of the charging player to move their group so that this situation doesn't occur. The described charge is illegal, and the obvious ('common sense') charge would have been straight toward (perpendicular) toward A-D such that W contacts B, X contacts C and Y contacts D,

Commodore · Post� le: Mar F�v 13, 2018 1:08 pm Sujet du message:

Nightingale87 · Gladiateur Inscrit le: 06 Avr 2017 Messages: 44

I see now. I wasn´t aware of the initial pivot made before the situation in the picture.

Then I have to say that:

A) they can continue to pivot (if that was the last thin done before the picture

B) they have to stop right there because otherwise Y would exit ZOC illegaly.

But i find it REALLY difficult to happen. If it´s your turn and you want to charge you would slide or pivot so that you can charge with your whole gropu, OR, spend one extra CP to charge with Z and then with the rest of the group.

In other words, as the phasing player, I don´t see how you can block yourself this way!

NOW....

Going to the original picture. I see that the cata group can slide LESS than one MU and then charge forward avoiding the Zoc of the crossbows. OF course, the most threatening enemy wouldnt be A, but the end result if you would have overlaps on both sides for each player. Not too bad.

Hazelbark · Magister Militum Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1529

daveallen · Post� le: Mar F�v 13, 2018 6:46 pm Sujet du message:

AlanCutner · Post� le: Mar F�v 13, 2018 6:47 pm Sujet du message:

I agree completely about helping an opponent. No problem there.

Hazelbark · Magister Militum Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 1529

Hippocleides · Post� le: Mer F�v 14, 2018 11:22 am Sujet du message:

Hi Alan

After initially thinking you should be able to charge at this angle, I now think probably not.
A charge by the whole group is not valid. The paths of X and Y are aimed at C and B, but go through the ZOCs of D and C before they get to their target, so are not allowed.
In effect, charges at an sharp angle are not allowed. Charges at a flatter angle, nearer a right angle, will be OK.

Referring to the original diagram of our game, I come to the conclusion that the troops in the angle are, effectively, not able to be contacted.
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It's all one to me.

ethan · Signifer Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014 Messages: 347

AlanCutner · Post� le: Mer F�v 14, 2018 12:47 pm Sujet du message:

Background (and apologies for not being clear on this before) -
1. Group W-Z starts roughly parallel to A-D with W roughly opposite B.
2. Group W-Z wheels at start of move upto the ZOC of D, then moves straight forward into the ZOC (Z moving closer to D within the ZOC).
3. There is sufficient move distance for the wheel and move to contact if effects of ZOC's are ignored.
4. The aim of the moving player is to contact with W-Z against each of A-D with a single CP.

I think, and my opponent has now concurred, that such a charge is not legal due to the ZOC effects as discussed in this thread. However it is interesting that different views have been presented suggesting the rules aren't necessarily clear cut.