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ZOC Query
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 09, 2018 11:30 am    Sujet du message: ZOC Query Répondre en citant
Had a situation in our game last night and want to check if we got it right


Cataphracts (A-D) face a line of cavalry (incl unit Y) flanked by crossbowmen (unit X).

1. Cataphract A is prevented from charging crossbow X because it would enter the ZOC of cavalry Y before the ZOC of the crossbowmen.
2. If cataphract A tries to wheel to charge cavalry Y it would enter the ZOC of the cavalry to its right first, so cannot hit the intended target (Y).
3. If cataphract A slides to its right and then charges it still cannot hit cavalry Y because it enters the crossbow ZOC first. And it still cannot hit those crossbowmen because it would have to wheel which it cannot do as its done a slide in charge.
4. If cataphract A had started its move in the slid over position a charge forward would enter the ZOC of one of the crossbowmen first. It would then start to wheel toward the pinning crossbows. This would bring it into the ZOC of cavalry Y at which point wed have to determine the 'most threatening' enemy which could be one of the two crossbows or the cavalry (depending on angles), and the cataphract could charge that (if in reach).

It seemed that by kinking a line it was possible to make it near impossible for units X or Y to be hit.

A second question is regarding a wheel by cataphracts A-D at the start of the charge. Assuming spacewas available beforeentering a cavalry ZOC to wheel sufficiently to target such that cataphract A is moving towards cavalry A (just!). Each of the cataphract units would enter the ZOC of the cavalry unit to the right of the one they're moving toward, so would still be prevented from lining up with A vs Y.

Is all this correct?
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Commodore
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2012
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 09, 2018 11:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Several points who are near all explained in FAQ p 4
For your points answers are
1/ yes
2/ yes
3/ yes
4/ no as the most threatening enemy will be the crossbow, so the cat ignores other enemies` ZOC
the most threatening is by priority order;
-the closest enemy whose ZOC cover part of the front of the friendly unit
-the closest enemy whose ZOC cover part of the flank or the rear

Considering the whole line wheeling, I think that it permit the 4 cats to contact and conform to the 4 cav as each cat will conform ( with the 1 UD bonus) to the most threatening unit. Do not forget that as soon as a contact is made, the ZOC disappear. For the last cat, depending of the wheel angle , the question will be "which ZOC is entered first, CV or CB ?" I think the Y CV one
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 09, 2018 5:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Citation:
4/ no as the most threatening enemy will be the crossbow, so the cat ignores other enemies` ZOC
the most threatening is by priority order;
-the closest enemy whose ZOC cover part of the front of the friendly unit
-the closest enemy whose ZOC cover part of the flank or the rear

So although the cataphract starts outside the ZOC it cannot declare a charge on the cavalry unit because as soon as it enters the crossbow ZOC it has to stop moving - it cannot wheel exept at the start of a charge.

Citation:
Considering the whole line wheeling, I think that it permit the 4 cats to contact and conform to the 4 cav as each cat will conform ( with the 1 UD bonus) to the most threatening unit. Do not forget that as soon as a contact is made, the ZOC disappear.

The issue with this is the cataphracts all enter ZOC's before any unit is contacted, so no ZOC's are cancelled.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 09, 2018 6:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I concur with Commodore.

Without measuring I can see how you likely can get a cat into the crossbow per your point 4.

To your point 3.
It looks like after a slide it can move straight into crossbow. Am I just misreading the photo?
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 09, 2018 6:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Citation:
To your point 3.
It looks like after a slide it can move straight into crossbow. Am I just misreading the photo?

After a slide Cataphract A is directly opposite Cavalry Y. So it cannot hit the crossbow as that would require a wheel.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 09, 2018 9:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Though I think the player might use 1CP to wheel A to face approx 7:00 towards Y and advance, entering the ZoC of Y before hitting the ZoC of X. If so, it can then move into contact with Y, then the player uses a 2nd CP to move the remaining cataphracts forwards as normal (slide, advance, conform).

Problem is that this is difficult to measure without theodolites and micromeasures - or an official ruling Wink 
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 10, 2018 6:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
1. the whole line of cataphracts first slides to its right
2. the whole line of cataphracts then moves forward
3. at some point the front right corner of cataphract A enters the ZOC of crossbowmen X
4. cataphract A is then obliged to hit crossbowmen X and NOT cavalry Y - from the photo it looks like this will happen naturally (albeit by a gnat's todger) without the need to peel cataphract A off from the line using a wheel
5. the rest of the cataphracts B, C and D close with the cavalry
6. the end result is cataphract A fights crossbowmen X; cataphract B fights the cavalry next to cavalry Y; etc etc
7. cataphract B's cavalry opponent will be supported by cavalry Y

I don't really see a problem here...
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 10, 2018 7:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If the cataphracts slide they are directly lined up with the cavalry. A move forward from a slide will not contact the crossbowmen. The issue arises because the player wanted to either contact unit X with unit A, or failing that contact the entire cavalry line without leaving unit Y as an overlap. From the replies I think theres been confirmation this wasn't possible.

However I'm still not sure about the situation if the cataphract line wheels to charge the cavalry. Still looks like ZOC's stop an angled line hitting an enemy line.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 10, 2018 8:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Does the end cataphract fighting have to enter the bad terrain if it fight the Xbox. It cannot line up touching edge to edge without entering due to the cav
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Sam Fév 10, 2018 10:52 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This is a problem of pure geometry. The act of pivoting a unit forwards pivots it’s ZoC across the front edge of the neighbouring unit. Up to 45degrees the ZoC of X will cover an amount (1/2?) of the frontage of Y. 

Logic suggests that if the group slide to the left is less than this, the first ZoC that A would enter would be Y. However the next issue is whether Y would be “the most threateningâ€, ie have the most frontage.

I would suggest that as a rule of thumb (for ease of play) perhaps it would be easiest to rule that up to 45 degrees, A can slide left more into the frontage of Y making Y the most threatening, over 45 degrees it cannot and the neighbouring unit “Z†becomes the most threatening, so the group would end up conforming to the right (as presented in the digram). 

Thoughts?
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 11, 2018 1:14 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Alternatively the cataphracts could spend more pips to move A by itself into contact with crossbowmen X. A small wheel at the start of A's move should mean it enters X's ZOC first (albeit there's a question over A getting dragged into disordering terrain when it conforms). Cataphracts B, C and D can then charge straight ahead and conform after contact. Again, B will be overlapped.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 11, 2018 9:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I don’t see that this situation prevents contact. It just prevents contact in the way the Cataphracts might like in an ideal world.

Or.... put another way, Irrespective of the geometry, isn’t what this boils down to a case of the 4-unit-wide Cataphracts wanting to charge a 6-unit-wide enemy formation which has already carefully teed itself up to receive them, and do so in a way which avoids the Cataphracts being charged in the flank in the next turn..?

Isn’t the real answer therefore that, perhaps sadly for the cataphracts (who are outnumbered here by 50% after all), that just ain’t gonna be possible - and they either need to bug out, or man up and charge in with a leftwards slide, try to roll good dice and win before the flank attack rolls them up? 
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 11, 2018 1:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Tim, I agree with you. But I'm biased because I was the player with the cavalry.

As for the geometry question (less than or more than 45 degrees - I don't think it matters. If a line charges at an angle to the enemy each unit will (nearly) always enter a ZOC of the unit next to its target before the ZOC of the target (the unit its moving toward). t that point its only in one ZOC so cannot proceed on towards its target. Unless I'm missing something.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 11, 2018 5:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree the Cataphracts might dither, possibly spoilt for choice over which squishy target to kill next. 
I can just see the thought bubbles now Very Happy 

Seriously, this has arisen from trying to comply with “most threatening enemy†when presented with a choice of several. Is there something more sensible here?
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Dim Fév 11, 2018 7:24 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant

The query about the angled charge is a simple one. As shown in the diagram unit Y enters the ZOC of unit D before any contacts are made, and before it enters the ZOC of any other unit. At this point the ONLY threatening unit is therefore unit D. So I assume unit Y cannot continue moving toward unit C. So in effect the groups charge is not legal. I accept that multiple CP's can be used to charge Z vs D first, and then Y vs C, etc.

Is this correct?
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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