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80. Warring States Qin 480-206BC
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Snowcat
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 29, 2018 11:07 am    Sujet du message: 80. Warring States Qin 480-206BC Répondre en citant
First attempt at constructing a 200Pts list for the Qin.

Issues: only 21 units and the structure might be a bit off.
Strengths: 9 Elite heavy impact units.

All comments welcome.

..

80. Warring States Qin 480-206BC
Initiative 3

Cmd1
Brilliant C-in-C 6
3 Elite 4-Horse Heavy chariot impact 13 39
3 Elite Heavy swordsmen impact 11 33
2 Crossbowmen 7 14
92
Cmd2
Competent Sub-Gen 3
3 Elite Heavy swordsmen impact 11 33
2 Crossbowmen 7 14
2 Heavy cavalry 9 18
1 Light infantry bow 4 4
72
Cmd3
Competent Sub-Gen (included) 0
2 Heavy cavalry 9 18
3 Light cavalry bow 6 18
36
21 units: 200pts
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Commodore
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 23 Aoû 2012
Messages: 1194
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 29, 2018 1:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
According to the mixed composition of your 2nd corps, I suggest you to change your general into brilliant and decrease your 3rd corps general as ordinary included.
I will also suggest to move one of the 2nd corps cav into the 3rd, changing it to 3 HC + 2 LH. You may also change your 3rd corps as unreliable ( as it is a defensive/covering wing it is not a big issue) instead of included as your HC units cannot be upgraded to elite ( it is better for included gen.)
If you want to increase your army, include your 3rd corps gen + unreliable. With the 3 saved points, change one of the 2nd corps crossbow (7pts) to 1 LH, to act as a team with the HC and one LI . Or one fortified camp and one LI .You reach 22 bases.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 29, 2018 2:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I would not becoming unreliable until you are much more experienced go included before unreliable.
I think you have 1 too many LC bow.
I would try to get more heavy foot, or swap a HC for another chariot. Probably move a HC to the chariot even if you make it an MC. It increase your exploitation and ability to screen a flank for a moment.
I'd try to get a LI into the chariot command. It moves with chariots and a good last minute screen against shooting.
Drop 3rd Corps to ordinary. I generally don't like Corps like this because they are basically throw away and could be more helpful. But it you are headed this route...
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 29, 2018 10:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Too many HC and I would rather have them as MC Xbow as well and get the fourth HCh.

A couple of MI Impact would also be handy as a reserve or terrain force. Get a couple more LI - you really want to be able to screen the HCh with them.
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Snowcat
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 30, 2018 10:17 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks for the great replies. Lots to think about there.

OK, here's another take:

80. Warring States Qin 480-206BC
Initiative 3

Cmd1
Brilliant C-in-C 6
2 Elite Heavy chariot impact 13 26
2 Heavy chariot impact 11 22
2 Elite Heavy swordsmen impact 11 22
1 Medium cavalry, crossbow 9 9
1 Light infantry bow 4 4
89
Cmd2
Competent Sub-Gen 3
4 Elite Heavy swordsmen impact 11 44
1 Medium cavalry, crossbow 9 9
2 Light cavalry bow 6 12
1 Levy 3 3
71
Cmd3
Competent Sub-Gen 3
2 Crossbowmen 7 14
2 Elite Medium swordsmen impact 10 20
1 Light infantry bow 4 4
41
21 units: 201pts

Better? Smile

And how best to depict the C-in-C? I see him in a 4-horse chariot on a round base, presumably behind the mass of other chariots.
The general of the 2nd command would be on horseback, possibly with an accompanying standard bearer. And the general of the 3rd command would be on foot, with an accompanying standard bearer/bodyguard type. Thoughts?

Cheers
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 30, 2018 12:15 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Cmd1
Brilliant C-in-C 6
2 Elite Heavy chariot impact 13 26
3 Elite Heavy swordsmen impact 11 22
1 Elite M Sw Impact
1 Medium cavalry, crossbow 9 9
1 Crossbowmen
1 LC Bow
1 Light infantry bow 4 4
89
Cmd2
Competent Sub-Gen 3
3 Elite Heavy swordsmen impact 11 44
1 Elite M Sw Impact
1 Crossbowmen

71

Cmd3
Competent Sub-Gen 3 Included
2 Elite Heavy chariot impact 13 26
1 MC Xbow
1 LC Bow
1 Light infantry bow 4 4

I would do more like this.
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babyshark
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 19 Jan 2015
Messages: 134
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 30, 2018 2:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ethan:

I like your version of the list better, but am finding it hard to articulate the reasons why. Will you explain your thinking, and why you designed it the way you did?

Marc
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Snowcat
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 30, 2018 10:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ethan

Where is your dedicated rough terrain force?

Here is your version:

Cmd1
Brilliant C-in-C 6 6
2 Elite Heavy chariot impact 13 26
3 Elite Heavy swordsmen impact 11 33
1 Elite M Sw Impact 10 10
1 Medium cavalry, crossbow 9 9
1 Crossbowmen 7 7
1 LC Bow 6 6
1 Light infantry bow 4 4
101

Cmd2
Competent Sub-Gen 3 3
3 Elite Heavy swordsmen impact 11 33
1 Elite M Sw Impact 10 10
1 Crossbowmen 7 7
53

Cmd3
Competent Sub-Gen 3 Included 0
2 Elite Heavy chariot impact 13 26
1 MC Xbow 9 9
1 LC Bow 6 6
1 Light infantry bow 4 4
45
199pts 20 units

Wouldn't it be better to shift the 1 Elite M Sw impact from Cmd 1 into Cmd 2? That would give Cmd 2 a decent rough terrain force in addition to shock infantry force.

Have you divided the 2 Crossbowmen across 2 commands so they can't be targeted as easily by enemy that would hurt them?

Cheers
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 31, 2018 3:35 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:
Ethan

Where is your dedicated rough terrain force?



I do not believe in this list you need a "dedicated" force. Elite H Swordsmen Impact are actually a reasonably credible force especially en masse. Having the long M Swordsmen makes that threat a little nastier and is the "point of the spear" so to speak. It also makes a useful reserve or against some enemies a front line fill in for a heavy swordsmen.
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 31, 2018 3:38 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
babyshark a écrit:
Ethan:

I like your version of the list better, but am finding it hard to articulate the reasons why. Will you explain your thinking, and why you designed it the way you did?

Marc


This version gives great flexibility in employment. You can either mass the HCh or have HCh in two locations. As I suggest below you don't need a dedicated terrain force, so you have flexibility on who goes through terrain. You have some shooting spread across the army to keep enemy mounted honest in particular (and you brigade the M Sw + Xbow together against really weak enemies in terrain).

Each HCh group has a little supporting cast of MC, LC and LI helping ot keep them safe and hopefully preventing a detour of HCh to chase around pesky LC and such.
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Snowcat
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 31, 2018 3:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
Snowcat a écrit:
Ethan

Where is your dedicated rough terrain force?



I do not believe in this list you need a "dedicated" force. Elite H Swordsmen Impact are actually a reasonably credible force especially en masse.


Do you mean in rough terrain?

ethan a écrit:
Having the long M Swordsmen makes that threat a little nastier and is the "point of the spear" so to speak.


Not sure what you mean by this. You mean 'lone' M Swordsmen, but how do they make the threat nastier? How are they the 'point of the spear'?
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 31, 2018 12:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:
ethan a écrit:
Snowcat a écrit:
Ethan

Where is your dedicated rough terrain force?



I do not believe in this list you need a "dedicated" force. Elite H Swordsmen Impact are actually a reasonably credible force especially en masse.


Do you mean in rough terrain?

ethan a écrit:
Having the long M Swordsmen makes that threat a little nastier and is the "point of the spear" so to speak.


Not sure what you mean by this. You mean 'lone' M Swordsmen, but how do they make the threat nastier? How are they the 'point of the spear'?


Yes in rough terrain. They are the point of hte spear in rough terrain. You pair up your M Sw with your H Sw make sure the M guys is fighting. A line of 3 H Sw + 1 M Sw in Rgo is difficult to stop. Just throwing a couple of M Sw against or some LMI won't get the job done.
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Snowcat
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 01, 2018 12:28 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ah, I understand you now. Interesting: I'd thought that the HI would have been more hamstrung in the rough terrain than they actually are.

So in that respect, the single MI is indeed the tip of the spear. Smile

(And hopefully only having 20 units is offset by the benefit of so many of them being Elite!)

Thanks.
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Black Prince
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 17 Oct 2016
Messages: 290
MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 01, 2018 9:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Remember Stalin's saying Quantity has its own Quality.

Dernière édition par Black Prince le Ven Fév 02, 2018 4:02 am; édité 1 fois
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Snowcat
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Ven Fév 02, 2018 12:29 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Black Prince a écrit:
Remember Stalin's saying Quantity has its only Quality.


“Quantity has a quality all its own.â€

That's not exactly helping. Wink
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