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Turning on a flank
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Richard Young
Archer


Inscrit le: 10 Aoû 2015
Messages: 56
MessagePosté le: Jeu Jan 18, 2018 9:20 am    Sujet du message: Turning on a flank Répondre en citant
I know this has come up before somewhere but I would appreciate clarification on these as I get very forgetful these days!

1. A unit of Frankish infantry (heavy swordsmen impetuous) is in front to front contact with a unit of Roman Legionaries (heavy swordsmen impact). Another unit of similar Frankish infantry is in flank to flank contact with the Roman legionaries i.e. in support of his mate.

It is the Franks turn.

The Frankish unit in flank to flank contact does not make an impetuous move as it currently provides flank support. If it wishes to turn on the flank of the Romans then it costs 2 CP. Is this correct?

(If the Roman unit was not in frontal combat then the Frankish unit in flank to flank contact could turn for free. This is not a charge).

2. A unit of Frankish infantry (heavy swordsmen impetuous) is charged for front to front contact by a unit of Saxon Heavy Spearmen. A Saxon light infantry then contacts the flank of the Frankish infantry with its front edge. This does not prevent the impetuous ability of the Franks (see page 17) but just provides support to the Saxon Heavy Spearmen. The Franks then roll for melee at +2 and so do the Saxons, +2. Correct?

3. If a unit of Roman Legionaries (heavy swordsmen impact) was charged by a unit of Frankish infantry (heavy swordsmen impetuous)and then also flank contacted by the front edge of a Frankish light infantry, then the impact of the impetuous Frankish infantry is cancelled but so is the impact of the Roman Legionaries. Correct?

Thank you
Richard
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babyshark
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 19 Jan 2015
Messages: 134
MessagePosté le: Jeu Jan 18, 2018 1:52 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As to item #1: depending on the exact alignment of the side to side contact the second unit of Franks will have to pay either 2 CP (to make a 90 degree turn) or 1 CP (to wheel).

Marc
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Jeu Jan 18, 2018 3:51 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Turning on a flank Répondre en citant
Richard Young a écrit:


2. A unit of Frankish infantry (heavy swordsmen impetuous) is charged for front to front contact by a unit of Saxon Heavy Spearmen. A Saxon light infantry then contacts the flank of the Frankish infantry with its front edge. This does not prevent the impetuous ability of the Franks (see page 17) but just provides support to the Saxon Heavy Spearmen. The Franks then roll for melee at +2 and so do the Saxons, +2. Correct?

3. If a unit of Roman Legionaries (heavy swordsmen impact) was charged by a unit of Frankish infantry (heavy swordsmen impetuous)and then also flank contacted by the front edge of a Frankish light infantry, then the impact of the impetuous Frankish infantry is cancelled but so is the impact of the Roman Legionaries. Correct?


I don't have my rules, but the Light infantry in the flank cancelling first turn benefits. It is written clearly somewhere before page 59 in the melee section.
So this will cancel the impetuous and such. So your #3 is exactly correct. I forget if it also cancel furious charge. I think it does, but IIRC the reading is clear.
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Maverick2909
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017
Messages: 103
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Jan 18, 2018 10:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
SO if turning on a unit when in side to side contact with neither unit having an opponent to their front isn’t a charge, neither unit gets first round bonuses such as impact or furious charge?
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 19, 2018 11:46 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You are talking about something slightly different here. Wink

Hazelbark is referring to p56, attacked on the flank or rear.
- Unit loses 'offensive' abilities and cannot 'furious charge' because both are directional, to the front.
- unit does not cancel out the abilities of the enemy that is fighting it

You are referring to the definition of "charge" p50, that is used elsewhere in the rules.
Since the manoeuvre is not a "charge", neither side benefits from the first round bonuses normally associated with the impetus of speeding into the combat.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 19, 2018 3:01 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Maverick2909 a écrit:
SO if turning on a unit when in side to side contact with neither unit having an opponent to their front isn’t a charge, neither unit gets first round bonuses such as impact or furious charge?


correct
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Maverick2909
Légionaire


Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017
Messages: 103
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 19, 2018 3:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So all that really happens is they would go to a 0 combat factor and my flanking unit would get a +1 to combat. I guess that’s still a pretty decent advantage. Thanks!
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 22, 2018 9:18 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So this came up at the weekend more in the sense of "where does it say in the rules?" than "you can't do that!"

[not my games, which were naturally full of gentlemanly discourse and the very idea of questioning another gentleman's motives was anathema] Wink

The first question is:

1) Why does it cost command points (CPs) to conform onto the flank of an engaged enemy?

To quote the rule:

Citation:
Page 59 Multiple Opponents 2nd Paragraph, middle sentences:

It is not necessary for the enemy to make a charge. It can engage the enemy by a simple move, or by conforming if it was already in contact with the unit.


I can't find where it says that you ever pay CPs to conform. I know it must be in there somewhere, but where?

For the second question we're back in the world of Barkerese.

2) Can a unit in position to conform simply wheel into contact instead of conforming?

As mentioned previously by Marc, the unit can be in a position to conform onto a flank or to wheel onto it. Does it have a choice?

My understanding (hah!) of the conform rule was that where conforming is not compulsory you have three choices - remain in position, move away, or conform. There doesn't seem to be an option to wheel into contact.

From the above rule I took the reference to a simple move to contact an enemy flank (or rear) as being an option that was only available to units not "already in contact." That would be clear if the rule said:

Citation:
It can engage the enemy by a simple move or, if it was already in contact with the unit, by conforming.


But as the rule stands it's somewhat ambiguous. At least for those of us who can't shake off old habits.

Dave
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Steve Price
Frondeur


Inscrit le: 01 Mar 2017
Messages: 8
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 22, 2018 12:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
And we thought using Franks would make life easier Laughing
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 22, 2018 4:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:


1) Why does it cost command points (CPs) to conform onto the flank of an engaged enemy?

2) Can a unit in position to conform simply wheel into contact instead of conforming?


I think you are mixing a few pieces or I am missing your point.
Conforming in effect never costs CP. Now you may conform as a result of spending CP on say a charge. But the conforming is after contact.

Now I think your other table is blurring what to do when in support versus not in support. But maybe I am reading this wrong.

So the conforming situation you specify is p55. "after a melee" It is a specific situation when no one is fighting (front edge to front edge) but they are still in contact. The argument I presume is, if there is a fight and you are in support your troops are not doing anything additional without CP because they are already "in the fight" via support. If no one is in support this is where you get the no CP cost.

So I think your reading of p 59 has sent you on a bit of a snip hunt.

The wheel onto a flank is when a unit is in support and want to quarter turn onto the flank. An impetuous/unmaneuverable unit would cost 2 CP, but via a wheel only 1 CP.

p3 of FAQ
Impetuous unit’s movement
Q : An impetuous unit, that is providing support to another unit in melee, moves less than 1UD but continues to support the same unit. What is the CP cost ? 1, 2 or 3 CPs ?
A : For impetuous units, if the movement ends in contact with the enemy (including support) a partial advance is not considered to be a difficult manoeuvre, so 1CP.
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 22, 2018 6:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Dan,

we're maybe thinking at cross purposes a bit here.

Page 55 Conforming after a melee applies to circumstances where the enemy you're conforming on isn't in melee with another unit.

Page 59 Multiple Opponents says you can conform if already in side to side contact or, if not, can make a simple move to engage in the melee.

So the questions are:

1) Is this two different kinds of conforming? Because the first is free and the other costs command points.

2) Can you in fact wheel (and then conform, obviously) if you're already in side to side contact? Because my reading of page 59 (see above) would be that you can't.

Now I know we've all played it that you pay for the conform in a Multiple Opponents situation, and that you can instead opt to wheel if you're in the right position and it would cost less command points*.

But having gone through the rules I'm inclining to the view that either we're playing it wrong, or the rules are wrong (ie translation problems again).

The third option is that I've missed the relevant rule tucked in somewhere inconspicuous. Shocked

* Your point about the FAQ for impetuous units explains why you'd save a command point by wheeling onto the flank, although it doesn't permit the wheel as such.

Dave
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 22, 2018 6:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So do you think p 59 over-rides page 55?

Because that seems what this argument suggests. I don't think it does.
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 22, 2018 8:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Page 55 Conforming - these rules only apply where a previous frontal contact NO LONGER exists "After a rout or disengage move..."

Page 59 - these rules apply where a frontal contact exists.
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 23, 2018 5:03 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
So do you think p 59 over-rides page 55?

Because that seems what this argument suggests. I don't think it does.

I think you're missing the point. If there's any primacy it should be with pages 52-55 which set out the rules on conforming in some depth. The reference to conforming on page 59 should therefore follow those rules or explicitly give a variation.

It's not so much one overriding the other, but more like a general principle and a specific application.

What I'm asking is where in the rules does it say you pay command point(s) for one conform and not the other?

As Zoltan says there are two circumstances where conforming to a flank happens - where there's an existing melee and where there isn't. With the latter the only way you can turn that contact into a melee is by conforming. So I don't see why you should get the option of a wheel with the former.

Dave
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 23, 2018 8:26 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Umm, I thought the FAQ went to some lengths to explain that Conformation only took place after movement, actual or implied by circumstances. 

As such, at the beginning of a turn, a unit may:-
  1. React to a change in the melee in which it is now engaged, if permitted, by Conformation (or evading).
  2. The player may pay CP to move (or rally) the unit.
    If it makes contact with an enemy it must conform.  
  3. Otherwise
    • If the unit is regular it remains stationary. 
    • If the unit is Impetuous and subject to an uncontrolled movement that is not exempted by circumstances or its situation, then the unit moves by itself. 


I would agree the rules could be better written, but I believe they are intended to be simple, or at least simpler than DBM and the dreaded ‘Barkerese’ referred to.

I think the problem being raised is that similar situations can arise after movement or at the start of a turn that are actually handled differently, depending on how we got to them. 
  • Where there was no change to the situation in the previous player’s turn, the unit cannot conform until the player has paid CP and moved it, even if that means merely turning or wheeling to face a flank.
  • Where the enemy in front of the unit was defeated and another is fighting its flank, or it survived an enemy attacking its flank, or some new enemy made contact etc, the unit may react to this situation, if permitted under the rules, by conforming with that enemy (or by evading if able).
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