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Attempt to conform as a group
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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AlanCutner
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Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Nov 30, 2017 11:30 pm    Sujet du message: Attempt to conform as a group Répondre en citant
Question arose in a game tonight.

A group 5 units wide charges an enemy unit, with contact by the right most unit of the group. The enemy unit is at an angle of about 45degrees to the group. The phasing player chooses to conform by group rather than just with the unit in contact. However the 1UD allowance for conforming is not enough to allow the group to conform due to the wide wheel by the left most unit.

Note if the phasing player had chosen to conform by individal units both the contacting unit and its immediate neighbour could have sccessfully conformed.

The question is whether a player can choose to conform by group if the conformation is not possible, where conforming by unit is possible.

We accepted that combat could still take place in either case. But the group move looked very odd and gamey.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 01, 2017 12:48 am    Sujet du message: Re: Attempt to conform as a group Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
Question arose in a game tonight.

A group 5 units wide charges an enemy unit, with contact by the right most unit of the group. The enemy unit is at an angle of about 45degrees to the group. The phasing player chooses to conform by group rather than just with the unit in contact. However the 1UD allowance for conforming is not enough to allow the group to conform due to the wide wheel by the left most unit.

Note if the phasing player had chosen to conform by individal units both the contacting unit and its immediate neighbour could have sccessfully conformed.

The question is whether a player can choose to conform by group if the conformation is not possible, where conforming by unit is possible.

We accepted that combat could still take place in either case. But the group move looked very odd and gamey.


p52 "Confirming is mandatory unless.."
p53 "If the conforming unit is part of a group, the entire group can, if the player wishes, be moved a maximum of 1UD by sliding and/or wheeling..."

I'm pretty sure the mandatory bit means its, erm, mandatory whenever possible.

I'd also suspect that any "group" defined as being involved in a conform move would/could only be made up of elements who could actually conform.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 01, 2017 9:11 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thats how we ended up playing it. The confusion is the section describing what happens if conforming is not possible - whether that applied in this case regarding the group.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 01, 2017 12:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Did you try looking at p36 " continuing a charge " for help?
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 01, 2017 1:44 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes, but didn't appear very helpful. The group was all HI, and the left most unit would have needed more than 3MU to complete a wheel to conform. So this left the question of whether a decision to conform by group was a valid option where conformation wasn't possible as a result, and then fight as if conformed.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 01, 2017 7:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I'm umpiring the Scottish Open this weekend. If this situation arises I take it, on the basis of Tim's response and nothing posted contrary, the rulling should be a group conform is only allowed if it can conform, otherwise units must conform individually.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 01, 2017 9:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You expected too much of slow troops at such an angle.
It was unreasonable to expect more than the end two to contact.
Faster troops could have staggered on before conforming.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Sam Déc 02, 2017 10:52 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This came up at todays tournament. A group of knights charged an enemy unit angled opposite one end of the line. Two of the knights could conform, the rest couldn't. So the group split as not all the group could conform.

Sorry if it seems I'm being pedantic on this but I'm still unsure on what should happen.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 03, 2017 12:32 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You are doing fine.
No one gets more than 1UD extra movement.
If the group is too wide or starts at too big an angle it's the players fault for charging a turn too early.

The extra is there to stop perfect alignement being required before one charges. To get units into contact easily without geometry gymnastics.

If the HI example required a five UD move to conform then that is unreasonable for a 2 UD mover.

They will need to reduce the group size that actually charges to one that is able to charge
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JohnTheBoring
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Inscrit le: 15 Juil 2015
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MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 03, 2017 11:57 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Does this not come under "unable to conform"?

If so the group contacts then does the 1ud wheel to attempt to conform, then fights the melee. The opponent then conforms on their move.

It would not work on a flank or rear as the rule says you have to conform fully in that case.

See the "unable to conform" diagram where A3 is contacted by a unit that cannot conform properly.
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Luddite
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Inscrit le: 15 Nov 2017
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MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 03, 2017 4:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Charge Definition p36 - A group can charge as long as one unit is able to contact the enemy.

Continuing a charge p36 - "the other units of a group that have not contacted an enemy can continue their charge up to their maximum move. This can cause a group to become separated but the CP cost does not change.

Once the units are in contact with an enemy, they must each conform (see p52). Continuing a charge is optional, except for impetuous units..."

So, the whole group may charge. Each unit stops on contact, and then individually conforms; and each unit not making contact may continue its charge in the specified direction (breaking the group?)

Conforming is clear that its a maximum 1UD, and may bring units from a group into contact that weren't. So i would say:

1. The 5-wide group charges in the specified direction.
2. The unit that makes contact stops.
3. Remaining units in the group may continue their charge (no indication they need to make contact).
4. Each unit in contact conforms up to 1UD
5. Any units still in group but not in contact may choose to "group conform" (p53) up to 1UD if it comes into a contact or support position.
6. Those that can't conform up to 1UD presumably don't?


No?



Question Confused

It does lead to an odd outcome though. As i understand, a unit can't declare charge unless it can contact an enemy unit? Is that the case?

But group charging makes it clear that as long as one unit can contact, the group can charge, and that other units in the group can continue their charge after that contact. So you can, i think, charge with a large unit, have one make contact and the rest charge onwards, not into contact.

Err?

Not sure, but that seems plausible.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 03, 2017 6:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Luddite - I think you've ignored the option to conform by group.

Restating the issue with what I think are the relevant rules

P52 Conforming 2nd para: Conforming is mandatory

P52 Conforming 3rd para (amended): First slide the unit or group by up to 1UD........

P53 Conforming 2nd para: If the conforming unit is part of a group, the entire group can, if the player wishes, be moved a maximum of 1UD by sliding and/or wheeling

P54 Unable to conform: In some situations it may be impossible for a unit contacting the front of an enemy to conform. This does not prevent the melee which is resolved normally.

So two possibilities
1. Conform as group where group wheels 1UD failing to conform. But fights melee as if conformed.

2. It is mandatory to conform. Its not possible to conform with the group. So must conform by unit, splitting the group.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 03, 2017 6:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As only the ones in contact fight, if the moving player is dogmatic in insisting staying as a group which cannot conform in less than 1UD then no one conforms, therefore no fight ensues. (It was not impossible for the contacting base to conform. It can on its own)

Insisting on being a group whatever will not get extra movement but prevents the charge. So now you have to be careful of Zoc infringement.

But that's another subject.

Pigs might fly just because they want to? (That's a joke not an insult )
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Luddite
Archer


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MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 03, 2017 7:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
Luddite - I think you've ignored the option to conform by group.


I address it in my point 5.
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JohnTheBoring
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MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 03, 2017 10:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
As only the ones in contact fight, if the moving player is dogmatic in insisting staying as a group which cannot conform in less than 1UD then no one conforms, therefore no fight ensues. (It was not impossible for the contacting base to conform. It can on its own)

Insisting on being a group whatever will not get extra movement but prevents the charge. So now you have to be careful of Zoc infringement.

But that's another subject.

Pigs might fly just because they want to? (That's a joke not an insult )


But the unable to conform rule means they do fight!
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