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Movement Along a Road
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 8:39 am    Sujet du message: Movement Along a Road Répondre en citant
Suggesting two amendments and seeking a clarification.

Citation:
Page 27 MOVEMENT DISTANCES bp3:

A unit or group of units moving its full movement distance in column along a road can advance up to its movement distance in open terrain regardless of the type of terrain crossed by the road. The unit can also add one UD to its movement allowance if the player chooses.

my emphasis


CLARIFICATION

This came up at the weekend:

Three Cav units in line along a road turn right and move (entirely along the road).

Based on the highlighted section of the rule, is their maximum move distance

a) 3UD
or
b) 3UD + 1UD

and why?

and would the answer be changed by the amendment?

AMENDMENTS

There is an obvious contradiction in the rule in that you can't move a unit both "its full movement distance" and "up to its movement distance." Apart from the obvious case of moving full distance of course. Wink

And while we're about it, the second sentence should allow groups the extra UD too.

I would like to suggest two amendments to the rule:

1) Replace "its full movement distance" with "entirely"

2) Insert "or group" after "unit" in the 2nd sentence.
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 11:29 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Why is the base move 3UD not 4UD if these are Cav?
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 1:38 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
Why is the base move 3UD not 4UD if these are Cav?

Because:
Citation:
Three Cav units in line along a road turn right and move

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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 2:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
'' Up to its movement distance in open terrain. ''
To give is full meaning, is a unit of measure, not an instruction.
It's length varies with unit types.

You may have walked your self into a complication that's not there.

So to answer your question, heavy cavalry move 4, plus one for road, less one for the turn, so leaves a maximum of 4 ud along the road.
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 3:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
'' Up to its movement distance in open terrain. ''
To give is full meaning, is a unit of measure, not an instruction.
It's length varies with unit types.

You may have walked your self into a complication that's not there.

So to answer your question, heavy cavalry move 4, plus one for road, less one for the turn, so leaves a maximum of 4 ud along the road.

Firstly, the problem isn't with '' Up to its movement distance in open terrain. ''

The problem is with the initial condition of " moving its full distance." Since you can't move the full distance and less than the full distance (ie up to, but not including the full distance), it seems to me that the initial phrase doesn't mean what it says, but might mean that the entire move should be in column on the road.

Now as the group of cavalry start in line it cannot move its full distance in column as the initial step of their move is to turn from line to column.

Do you see what I mean?
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 5:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This seems simple to me.

The debate if I understand it is:
does the action of the turn break the requirement to be entirely moving along the road.

I think yes. so you do not gain the additional UD.

There is a secondary point you seem to be saying there is an implication that the rules require moving 100% of the possible distance. I do not believe that is what the rules say.
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 5:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
There is a secondary point you seem to be saying there is an implication that the rules require moving 100% of the possible distance. I do not believe that is what the rules say.


But the rule says "A unit or group of units moving its full movement distance in column along a road..."

I think this is a mistranslation and it means the entire move should be on the road in order to get the benefits of the road.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 5:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think we are vehemently agreeing on what should be, but maybe not understanding each other.

I think the intent is:
1) You must be 100% on the road with and advance to get the extra UD.
2) You may choose to use less than that distance.

I think that is what it says as a rule.
I think you are saying it doesn't say that as a rule, even if that is the intent.

Do I have it right?
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 7:03 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes, I think the wording we have now just makes people furrow their brows and maybe miss the intention.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 8:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I understand the point being made, that it is possible that the intention has been lost in translation. Perhaps the French can explain the original intent here.

In order to gain the extra 1UD movement, does the unit or group;

  1. Merely have to start and end their move on the road.
  2. Have to start and end on the road, and use their full movement allowance.
  3. Have to start and end on the road, and move along the road without making any quarter of half turns.
  4. Have to start and end on the road, and move their full distance along the road without making any turns.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 9:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I have to say I think you guys are over thinking this one.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 9:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree.
We will otherwise restrict it to columns only and does a group of one ever form a column?
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 21, 2017 10:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Possibly Wink
However this provides an issue where a player places a road across the table in his deployment zone and positions a group on the road facing the enemy, anticipating being able to gain 1UD when turning and moving the group left or right along the road as a column (thus offsetting the cost of the turn).
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 22, 2017 2:48 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I regularly place a road along my deployment long edge and set up a line of cavalry on it. In my first move I turn the line 90 degrees and move the column entirely along the road (sometimes for multiple movements if pips allow).

Page 30, Particular Cases bullet point two makes it clear that the 90 degree turn "uses" one of 4UDs my cavalry is entitled to when moving in the open (i.e. on a road). Thus, turning 90 degrees and moving 3UD in column along the road means I have moved my full distance of 4UD.

Page 27 Movement Distances bullet point 3 then entitles me to add an additional 1UD for moving my full movement distance along the road in column.

Thus, start on the road in line, turn 90 degrees and move 4UD along the road in column. It's all there in black and white.
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 22, 2017 6:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
And there we have it.

It seems the French and New Zealand interpretation is that the units get the +1UD bonus.

The British and American interpretation is that they don't.

We at least need a FAQ about it.

Dave
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