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Early Franks
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Snowcat
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Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 13, 2017 12:25 am    Sujet du message: Early Franks Répondre en citant
As one gentleman recently inquired as to the tactics of the Early Franks on TMP, I thought one of my replies might be of interest here.

Commanding the Early Franks is not for the fainthearted. They were a one-trick pony who relied on their enemy accepting a massed frontal assault and without a corresponding turning of their flanks.

They were still relying on this tactic in the 6thC at Volturnus against Narses:

http://byzantinemilitary.blogspot.com.au/2012/04/battle-of-volturnus-romans-vs-franks.html

It didn't end well.

How do you keep your flanks secure with an army of Early Franks, considering 90% of them are raving nutters on foot who only want to charge straight ahead at the enemy…? (At least the Alamanni could use their bowmen creatively somehow.)

On the bright side, they do look awesome.



Personally I think anyone with a thing for the Early Franks would be better off taking a slab of them in a Hunnic army, and suddenly most of the issues disappear. But for that rarest of nutter who wants a whole army of Early Franks, how do you stop most enemies from butchering you piecemeal via your flanks?

Cheers
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Fév 13, 2017 5:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So having run Gauls and other mostly HI impetuous armies. It is not as completely forlorn.

Madaxemen posted this versus a German foe
http://www.madaxeman.com/reports/Saumur_2016_2.php

The German list he opposed is pretty close to a Frankish in options.

The issue of "getting to the flanks" really requires a high speed army doing it on turn 1. The HI will be moving as rapidly as possibly into contact. And it is not easy to punch through these HI. In one game I was going to throw 7 Knights at them. Well the enemy wheeled. So I only got 5 KN in cleanly. Essentially the KN are up 1 in the first round and have Armor. So where the KN win they start to grind through. But once the KN lose on a bad die roll, they likely are ground down. So the question is, do the KN get through fast enough, with enough.

The Franks will presumably have tried for a coastal zone to secure one flank and some other terrain too if possible. They will know that most foes will swing to their flank and deploy assuming that. That is what their CV does, delay and evade until the HI can wheel in.

Coastal zone 4 UD + you don't have to deploy next to coast, say 3 more UD + 11 HI, you are now 18 UD covered on a 30 UD board. Of those remaining 12 UD you have 3 MC and LI that mean no one is double moving. That is if there is no other terrain of significance. The big HI command can be deployed at an angle as the 3rd Corps. So it is part way into its wheel with a secure flank. Sooner or later the enemy will meet some portion of the HI head on and have to try to bust through. Without KN or EL that is an even proposition at best.

Personally I like Gauls more than Franks. But what is great about ADLG, is these armies actually are viable enough to be worth playing.
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 14, 2017 11:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Brilliant reply, thanks. Worth several re-reads. Smile

Cheers
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 8:21 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
An old thread but a good one. Wink

Any thoughts on this list?

96 - Franks
250-534 AD
Cmd1
Strategist C-in-C 10 10
4 Elite Heavy cavalry 11 44
4 Elite Heavy swordsmen impetuous 10 40
2 Light infantry bow 4 8
102

Cmd2
Ordinary Sub-Gen 0 0
4 Elite Heavy swordsmen impetuous 10 40
2 Light infantry javelin 4 8
48

Cmd3
Ordinary Sub-Gen 0 0
4 Elite Heavy swordsmen impetuous 10 40
2 Light infantry bow 4 8
48
198pts 22 units

So 16 elite hard hitting nutters (for 16 serious fighting frontages). Not an army that will win too often, especially against a canny opponent - but oh the glory when it does!

Cheers
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 7:21 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This is actually a very serious list and not to be dismissed.

I have run similar.

FWIW My Ostrogoths have 19 battle units.

The opponents who stand in the center of the table with open flanks will get beat by this.
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 11:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:


The opponents who stand in the center of the table with open flanks will get beat by this.


So that would be 1 out of 10, and only likely to try it once! Wink

I may need a more cunning plan...

What follows assumes the lack of really useful terrain features to anchor off, so basically an open field.

The trick would be to develop a technique where the hairy nutters deploy in support of the Strategist C-in-C command and steamroll around him. The C-in-C command could deploy in the centre-right of the table, using the light infantry and cavalry to delay and attack enemy cavalry to the left. (I'd probably give this command an extra 1-2 light infantry for this purpose.) The Hvy Inf warband would engage whatever is in front of it.

The other 2 commands would support the C-in-C command. The 2nd command on the right going basically straight ahead into available enemy. The 3rd command is not deployed on the left of the C-in-C command, but held back in reserve (still moving) to counter enemy coming from the left flank. This is to prevent the army from being flanked on the left side. The 2nd command is already pushed to the right edge of the table, so being flanked there is less likely. Its skirmishers would have to deal with any surprises.

So the plan is to crush the enemy centre-right while delaying anything fancy it might try to the left.

I can still see enemy light cav finding a way to scoot down the extreme right flank to cause trouble, but at this stage I don't have much to deal with that, unless I entrust some cav (from the C-in-C command) to the 2nd command. That means an Ordinary General with impetuous foot + cavalry = something is likely to go wrong?

Anyway, the army is an old fave and I just discovered Gripping Beast's little range of 28mm Merovingian/Salian Franks. Smile
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 08, 2018 9:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think you need to give some thought to closing off your right. Relatively simple if you plan to move into that space with HI and even sacrifice an LI to buy a turn. 1-2 HI can close off that side and handle a pair of enemy LC.

If they come with CV you likely can do the same, because CV will not want to charge HI head on generally speaking.

Now if they come with knights or Cataphracts its a bit tougher. but you are then being assaulted.
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 08, 2018 10:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:


Now if they come with knights or Cataphracts its a bit tougher. but you are then being assaulted.


If that happens, can I charge my opponent with 'Assault'? Wink
And what about Battery while I'm at it!

They should know they're only allowed to line up centrally against me with open flanks. Mr. Green
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 08, 2018 11:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:


They should know they're only allowed to line up centrally against me with open flanks. Mr. Green


You'd be amazed at how often it happens. I try to tell people about it.
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 08, 2018 11:38 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
Snowcat a écrit:


They should know they're only allowed to line up centrally against me with open flanks. Mr. Green


You'd be amazed at how often it happens. I try to tell people about it.


Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!! Wink
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 13, 2018 1:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
A few more combinations from the cunning mind of Clovis...

Alternative List 1:

96 - Franks
250-534 AD

Cmd1
Strategist C-in-C 10 10
8 Elite Heavy swordsmen impetuous 10 80
2 Light infantry bow 4 8
2 Light infantry javelin 4 8
106

Cmd2
Ordinary Sub-Gen 0 0
4 Elite Heavy cavalry 11 44
44

Cmd3
Ordinary Sub-Gen 0 0
4 Elite Heavy swordsmen impetuous 10 40
2 Light infantry bow 4 8
48
198pts 22 units


Alternative List 2:

96 - Franks
250-534 AD

Cmd1
Strategist C-in-C 10 10
8 Elite Heavy swordsmen impetuous 10 80
2 Light infantry bow 4 8
2 Light infantry javelin 4 8
106

Cmd2
Ordinary Sub-Gen (Included) -3 -3
4 Elite Heavy cavalry 11 44
41

Cmd3 (Allied Alemanni)
Ordinary Ally-Gen (Included) -3 -3
2 Elite Heavy swordsmen impetuous 10 20
2 Heavy swordsmen impetuous 8 16
3 Mediocre Bow 5 15
1 Light infantry bow 4 4
52
199pts 24 units


Alternative List 3 (more conservative list with the allied Alemanni):

96 - Franks
250-534 AD

Cmd1
Strategist C-in-C 10 10
8 Elite Heavy swordsmen impetuous 10 80
2 Light infantry bow 4 8
2 Light infantry javelin 4 8
106

Cmd2
Ordinary Sub-Gen 0 0
4 Elite Heavy cavalry 11 44
1 Light infantry bow 4 4
48

Cmd3 (Allied Alemanni)
Ordinary Ally-Gen 0 0
2 Elite Heavy swordsmen impetuous 10 20
2 Heavy swordsmen impetuous 8 16
2 Mediocre Bow 5 10
46
200pts 23 units

(And if there's a belief that the Strategist C-in-C is wasted with 8 HI and 4 LI, that can easily be rectified by switching it back to the original combination where he has 4HC, 4HI & 2LI. Then the Sub-Gen just has 4HI and 2LI.)

I'm liking that 3rd Alemanni command. It gives me an extra dimension & more options on that flank.

In Alternative List 2, the C-in-C could also be Included, saving 3 pts. Removing the LI Bow from the Allied command saves 4 more points. 8 points are then available to purchase 1 more HI Impetuous @8 pts for the Allied Command.

Thoughts?
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Snowcat
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mar 05, 2018 12:42 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Here's a Frankish list recommended by one of our French friends. It's very similar to one of mine using the allied Alamanni command. (I've since learned I'd been paying too much for the allied ordinary general.)

Only issue I see with this is the Alamanni general may struggle for CPs.

Corps 1:
General in Chief Strategist 10
8 Warriors Impetuous Heavy Infantryman Elite 80
2 light infantry javelin 8
2 light infantry bow 8
106

Corps 2:
Ordinary general included -3
4 noble Elite Heavy Cavalry 44
41

Corps 3:
Ordinary allied general included -6
1 Warriors Heavy Impetuous Infantry Elite 10
3 Warriors Heavy Impetuous Infantry 24
2 Bowmen 14
1 light infantry bow 4
1 noble medium cavalry 7
53

200 pts, 24 elements.

And my modification to the 3rd Corps is to downgrade the 2 x Bw, remove the LI, and get an extra MC:

Corps 1:
General in Chief Strategist 10
8 Warriors Impetuous Heavy Infantryman Elite 80
2 light infantry javelin 8
2 light infantry bow 8
106

Corps 2:
Ordinary general included -3
4 Noble Elite Heavy Cavalry 44
41

Corps 3:
Ordinary allied general included -6
1 Warriors Heavy Impetuous Infantry Elite 10
3 Warriors Heavy Impetuous Infantry 24
2 Bowmen Mediocre 10
2 Noble medium cavalry 14
52

A further option to improve the allied corps would be to downgrade 2 of the Noble Cavalry in Corps 2 from 'elite' to 'normal', and upgrade the MC in Corps 3 to HC. So the army ends up with 6 HC.

Don't like 2 x mediocre bow? Replace 1 of them with LI and either upgrade 1 Alamanni Warrior to elite or restore 1 Frankish noble HC to elite.

e.g.

Corps 1:
General in Chief Strategist 10
8 Warriors Impetuous Heavy Infantryman Elite 80
2 light infantry javelin 8
2 light infantry bow 8
106

Corps 2:
Ordinary general included -3
2 Noble Elite Heavy Cavalry 22
2 Noble Heavy Cavalry 18
37

Corps 3:
Ordinary allied general included -6
2 Warriors Heavy Impetuous Infantry Elite 20
2 Warriors Heavy Impetuous Infantry 16
1 Bowmen Mediocre 5
1 Light infantry bow 4
2 Noble heavy cavalry 18
57

24 units, 200 points
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Mar 05, 2018 5:45 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So you're degraded Alemannic ally sort of degrades the value of their intent. The two Bow give you some ability to take care of enemy mounted in small numbers. So a lone LC you can shoot down. You can tuck them inside 1 HI and any middling CV that charge them risk destruction as you will have supports.

If you make the mediocre then then they really become filler. I will take 1 Mediocre bow with 2-3 ordinary. But when I take 2 mediocre I don't plan to do much but occupy one enemy single LC.

The other thing you are doing is dissipating the power of the elite HC block. I presume the French list of 4 elite HC theory is, they are strong enough to face ANYTHING. They can evade. Armored and elite can even risk standing still in face of a pike charge then break off. But obviously that is a last resort.
You need to be disciplined to keep the 4 together until the last moment. You are always guaranteed 1+1 CP. But once the general starts fighting... you're set.
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Luddite
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Messages: 52
MessagePosté le: Lun Mar 05, 2018 5:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
In ADLG you don't really need to worry too much about flanks.

The the right army, and elite impetuous heavy swordsmen fit that particular bill, you'll win the fight up front before your flanks fold.

Adopt their mentality - get stuck in! Get stuck in hard and fast and kill the enemy before they can develop their outflanking shenanigans.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Mar 05, 2018 10:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Luddite a écrit:
In ADLG you don't really need to worry too much about flanks.


Ummmm. NO.
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