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Most disliked Troop type
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belinconnux
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 09 Sep 2009
Messages: 5443
Localisation: BORDEAUX, near Vana
MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 26, 2016 1:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Its dangerous I think. There are 283 basic lists and how more including allies?
I think using good thematic for competition will be a solution for seeing rare lists.

Its very difficult too have agrement about list. Look the first one "Sumer & Akkad". Historians and Zoologists are at odd about Heavy Chariots. First claim that this weapon was towed by wild Donkey, Hemione. Second that hemione are too wild and weak to tow those heavy machines.
Another, "medium" chariot towed by 3 horses! It's not serious. The third horse was a kind of shield for the other.
So in fact vote is ... democcratic! Shocked Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'm sorry I've lot of arguments but my english is too bad to develop Crying or Very sad
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Lun Déc 26, 2016 2:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
belinconnux a écrit:
Its dangerous I think. There are 283 basic lists and how more including allies?
I think using good thematic for competition will be a solution for seeing rare lists.

Its very difficult too have agrement about list. Look the first one "Sumer & Akkad". Historians and Zoologists are at odd about Heavy Chariots. First claim that this weapon was towed by wild Donkey, Hemione. Second that hemione are too wild and weak to tow those heavy machines.
Another, "medium" chariot towed by 3 horses! It's not serious. The third horse was a kind of shield for the other.
So in fact vote is ... democcratic! Shocked Laughing Laughing Laughing

I'm sorry I've lot of arguments but my english is too bad to develop Crying or Very sad


I don't think this is about "helping" rare lists. It is about historical lists

There has been a lot more research since the DBM lists were published, and so historians (and Wargamers) have more accurate information on some historical armies than they did 10+ years ago.

Other rule sets are using this information in their lists already, so it can seem that some ADLG lists are today inaccurate compared to what historians now believe is true

I think it would be good for ADLG to include this information as well at some point in future.
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ethan
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 27, 2016 12:58 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I am with the Madaxeman here, there is a remarkable amount of ongoing archaeological and historical research relevant to ancient and medieval armies. Also, as the game gets more international research in languages other than English become more widely known further expanding our knowledge.

The goal isn't to create super armies, but to have armies that accurately reflect the current state of knowledge.
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015
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Localisation: Lancaster, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 28, 2016 8:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Commodore a écrit:
Medium cavalry mediocre. They are just able to prevent a flank attack in second line with their ZOC, out of range of everyone has something bigger than a biscuit to throw and only able to kill light infantry in open or give an overlap


Ramses II a écrit:
The obvious choice is LMI Javelinmen, which no-one seems to take unless their arms are twisted (severely).


I find both comments quite funny given I had to endure the same comments at the Worlds in Charleroi where I used 6 mediocre MC and 6 LMI javelinmen in my Later Achaemenid Persian army. The comments ranged from the derisive to the puzzled on Saturday. On Sunday I noticed players were actually studying the army in action and how I used it. I came 4th.

http://www.madaxeman.com/adlg/tiki-index.php?page=Later+Achaemenid+Persian

This is what I like about ADLG (badly paraphrasing Napoleon): there are no bad units, only players who don't know how to use them.
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AntiokosIII
Barbare


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Localisation: Salinas, California, USA
MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 28, 2016 10:28 pm    Sujet du message: @ Snowhitsky; Répondre en citant
Now you're just bragging. Brilliant generals can find uses for crap troops. That does not make crap troops any less crappy. A good definition of bad troops would be that the player has to be a near-genius to find a use for them. I have played with a lot of mediocre cavalry. They do have uses. They are still crap. The same holds for javelins. They can be wedged and levered into a useful role, but not easily. In both cases the same functions can be performed by REAL TROOPS that can carry our other tasks as well.
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chris6
Vétéran


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 29, 2016 9:02 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Both of you are right in their own way. The "crappy" troops can find their role but this depends on the situation and the opponent.

This is what I like about ADG. All troops and Army compositions can be usefull if you have a plan and stick to it, even if the plan sucks, well than you loose, but not because of crappy troops, but because of the plan.

And still we have to remember that jav or med cav mediocre are cheap. We can not expect superior troops at low costs.
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 29, 2016 9:25 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Bragging? Possibly. It all depends on how many players can achieve similar results with that list... Wink

Sure, if you want to go headlong into combat with your more fragile troops don't expect great results.

Here is how I use mediocre MC and LMI javelinmen:

MC: at 5 points apiece you can usually build a longer cavalry line than your opponent which means the mediocre cavalry can be manoeuvred into a flanking position while your better cavalry faces off the opponent's line. That forces your opponent to either retreat or charge in against your better cavalry after splitting off flank guards. Either way, you have opportunities to exploit.

LMI javelinmen: Most terrain falls on the flanks where players naturally position their mounted commands. If you place one javelinmen in that terrain the enemy mounted can't move past it without risking a flank charge. If it swings wide to avoid the terrain, the javelinmen can come out, ZOC the end element and shoot it. Your opponent now has no choice but to screen off the javelinmen with one unit so the rest of the command can proceed with it's attack. Apart from costing an additional 1 PIP to turn to face and possibly charge, that unit is usually worth a lot more than the javelinmen and the width of the command is reduced by one (CUE: mediocre MC enters from the open flank). Oh yes, and the odd javelinmen in your army also have a tendency of keeping elephants honest...

You mention that real troops could do the same tasks but I disagree. In the case of the javelinmen, MI can't evade so when the mounted turn around and charge you in the open the result isn't good. As for the cavalry, it's all a question of points. Sure, an impact/bow cavalry will do a much better job but they cost twice as much so your line isn't usually that much wider than your opponents.

To summarize, you can't use "crap" troops in a head-on match up and expect results but neither would you, say, send your mounted troops into terrain against terrain troops. That's not their role.


Dernière édition par Snowhitsky le Jeu Déc 29, 2016 4:53 pm; édité 1 fois
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belinconnux
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 09 Sep 2009
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Localisation: BORDEAUX, near Vana
MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 29, 2016 2:03 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Most disliked Troop type Répondre en citant
Pyrrhus17 a écrit:
Just to liven things up . What is you most disliked Troop type and why .


The question is just a matter of choice. And the principal danger isn't the troops but thier general* or player in our games.

* " J'aime mieux une armée de moutons commandée par un lion qu’une armée de lions commandés par un âne. "
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Pyrrhus17
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Inscrit le: 14 Sep 2016
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 29, 2016 8:26 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Most disliked Troop type Répondre en citant
belinconnux a écrit:
Pyrrhus17 a écrit:
Just to liven things up . What is you most disliked Troop type and why .


The question is just a matter of choice. And the principal danger isn't the troops but thier general* or player in our games.

* " J'aime mieux une armée de moutons commandée par un lion qu’une armée de lions commandés par un âne. "


"The question is just a matter of choice" I
this is the very point of the discussion . What troop type do you personally have trouble with . The point is to generate a discussion Have fun and perhaps to get some help alone the way from other players .It isn't a criticism of the game .
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Pyrrhus17
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Inscrit le: 14 Sep 2016
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 29, 2016 8:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
I am with the Madaxeman here, there is a remarkable amount of ongoing archaeological and historical research relevant to ancient and medieval armies. Also, as the game gets more international research in languages other than English become more widely known further expanding our knowledge.

The goal isn't to create super armies, but to have armies that accurately reflect the current state of knowledge.


Totally agree with Madaxman and ethan
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Sam Déc 31, 2016 3:27 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think there is a way to do list updates intelligently. I think too many list updates are X should be this troop type. It really becomes game waging history at times.

So the method would be to have group "A" compile all the arguments and citations. Let's say the argument is Hittites were really the same basic chariot as the NKE and therefore should be LCH bow not HCH impact. Then that data is turned over to a more senior (author?) group "B" that says ok we can take this, not that to promote history of game balance.

Some of this would be simple troop ratios, other would be sharper clarification on strategist or troop availability by years. Other clean ups like list #243 which allows heavy impact knights in 1180 AD.

Note this is likely also a 12-18 month process.
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Janos Hunyadi
Auxiliaire


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MessagePosté le: Sam Déc 31, 2016 11:47 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Pyrrhus17 a écrit:
ethan a écrit:
I am with the Madaxeman here, there is a remarkable amount of ongoing archaeological and historical research relevant to ancient and medieval armies. Also, as the game gets more international research in languages other than English become more widely known further expanding our knowledge.

The goal isn't to create super armies, but to have armies that accurately reflect the current state of knowledge.


Totally agree with Madaxman and ethan


Just so long as people do not do a Phil Barker Job on ADLG constantly making updates. I have only just played my first game. A little stability would be nice.
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 01, 2017 4:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Janos Hunyadi a écrit:
Just so long as people do not do a Phil Barker Job on ADLG constantly making updates. I have only just played my first game. A little stability would be nice.


I think Hazelbark's suggestion of revisions to the army lists every 1-2 years or so is a reasonable one. Games that remain unchanged for long periods run into problems.
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Janos Hunyadi
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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 01, 2017 8:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
Janos Hunyadi a écrit:
Just so long as people do not do a Phil Barker Job on ADLG constantly making updates. I have only just played my first game. A little stability would be nice.


I think Hazelbark's suggestion of revisions to the army lists every 1-2 years or so is a reasonable one. Games that remain unchanged for long periods run into problems.


I remember Phil Barker first came over to Worthing with the DBA rules when it first came out, and we ended up with DBMM, umpteen years and army lists later. Just so long as there is not a temptation to over dabble. People seem to seek simplicity, then proceed to over complicate things.
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Pyrrhus17
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Inscrit le: 14 Sep 2016
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 03, 2017 5:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I can understand the "fear " of Barkerdom . I think this can be controlled much easier than in DBA DBMM DBM etc etc etc . The problem before I feel was trying to "win " over the committee or individual who was the last h
judge on the lists ( still know you can see Barkers prejudice for and against some lists ) That is what I feel could be eliminated with the judgement for or against (discussion of) taking place here on the forums . ever few years that gives time to play test .. In short I would want to follow typical modern new release habits like new cars that don't work after the first month of use games that crash midgame each time you play .spaceships that blow up on the launch pad . 1.1 1.2 1.5 1.99999516 etc I rather would go with the hand made approach or tried and tested like an ak-47
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