Art De La Guerre

[Ramses II]

Two units A,B have attacked enemy unit X at the end of a line of enemy units Y, Z. A is to the front, B is on the flank of X :-

ZYXB
. . A

1. Assuming X is routed, this raises a number of questions
   
   1. If A is not Impetuous, can it choose whether to 'Pursue' forwards or 'Conform' sideways to the front of Y?
   2. If A is Impetuous, does that make a difference?
   
   
2. Where A cannot conform on Y, A and B are both eligible to pursue into the space vacated by X on the flank of Y.
   1. If neither is Impetuous, can the player choose which to move?
   2. Does it make a difference if one is Impetuous?

[Brave Coeur]

Good questions, I try to answer in your text:

[Ramses II]

Thanks for the response, though I think you may be mistaken regarding "Conforming after a melee".
P55, and confirmed in the FAQ, says that conforming happens immediately the melee ends and before the next player's phase. So, this type of Conforming and Pursuit happen simultaneously - hence my question over which takes priority (if any), and the circumstances when the player can choose or not.

Also, I understand that Impetuous troops "must" pursue, but only if they are able to do so. Given a choice, a player might choose to move another non-Impetuous unit into the location. The question is whether the player should be allowed to make this choice or not.

The whole point here is that, Rules As Written (RAW) if the enemy unit X is routed by the two units AB, after the melee A can conform left to the front of Y, and B can pursue onto the flank of Y. This automatically inflicts a disorder marker on Y, reducing the combat factor to -1 with a good chance that Y will also be destroyed.

Does this make my query a bit clearer?

[belinconnux]

[Ramses II]

Thanks for the reply, though Brave Couer's and your response have confused me a little regarding the timing of conforming after a melee, and what is permissible.

P57 has three diagrams to illustrate conforming after a melee. The third diagram shows two units that are in contact only by their front corners, and they are shown to conform by sliding sideways, ending up face to face. It is also noted that evading is permitted in this case

The FAQ reference you quote (2nd bullet) suggests that conforming after a melee occurs immediately, but apparently only refers to the first two diagrams on p57, where there is indeed a flank contact and evading is not permitted.

Are you suggesting that the third diagram is no longer valid in some way, or that the timing is somehow different?

[belinconnux]

I mean that a unit can conform a the end of her melee phase only if she was under flanc or rear attack.
I've not the english rules so I can only speak about original rules.
_________________
Hasta la victoria Siempre!
Peter Lord dobeul impact

[Ramses II]

I did understand what you meant about conforming on a flank or rear.

However, I was led to believe that the text and diagrams were the same in both the French and English sets of rules. Hence my query about the third diagram which clearly presents a different case. Please could you refer to your French rules and see if this third diagram exists there.

Could you also contact El Kreator to bring him into the discussion

[Ramses II]

Ok, so I have posted the question here on the French forum

[Ramses II]

As there has been no reply to the questions I posted in the French forum, I am posting them here (in case my French has been rendered completely unintelligible by Google translator)

There are several points that remain unclear, which probably needs El Kreator to clear up. Please forgive my poor French (google translator is largely to blame) and the length of the following: -

The Timeline
In the latest FAQ p7, Time of Conformation, the second bullet indicates that conformation replaces pursuit where the unit is contacted on its rear or flank by the front edge of an enemy. However, there seems to be an error in translation; the English FAQ says this action happens "immediately" which is omitted from the French FAQ. To be totally clear,

• As pursuit occurs in the phase of the current player, it follows that conformation after a melee also occurs in the phase of the current player. Is it correct?
  
• If this occurs during the phase of the current player, does the unit conform (or pursue) immediately after the particular melee is resolved, or can the decision be delayed until after all the melees are resolved?

Different types of contact
This FAQ on the timing of conformation also ignores other more common situations, contact between the flanks of enemy units (Alf’s example) and contact between the front corner of a unit against the front corner of a unit enemy. Since these types of contact are omitted from the FAQ, are they:

• No longer seen as something that a unit must comply with in the phase of the current player?
  
• Something that prevents pursuit (because not all enemies are destroyed to the front of the unit), forcing a unit to conform instead?
  
• Something that changes the chronology of this conformation, forcing the enemy unit to act in the next player’s phase (per P52 second paragraph)?

Priority
If conformation happens during the phase of the current player, a unit may be in a position either to conform or pursue. However we do not know which rule takes precedence over the other. This is further complicated by the rules on conformity (P52, 2nd paragraph), which states that it is mandatory, while conforming after a melee (P55) states it is not mandatory, unless the unit is impetuous.

• Is this a free choice?
  
• If there is not a free choice, what prevents the free choice?
  (For example, does being Impetuous force the unit to conform if it remains in contact with an enemy, rather than pursuing forward into the space of the enemy unit that it routs. Or does the choice become free if the pursuit would contact a second enemy unit).

[belinconnux]

The Timeline
You can pursue only at the end of your mêlee phase. This is compulsory for impetuous unit, not for others units. You can't pursue if your unit has her flank or rear in contact with the front of an ennemy unit. In this case your unit has to conform at the end of your mêlee phase.

Different types of contact
Conformation is never compulsory except for impetuous units.
The conformation occurs in your next mouvement phase.

Priority
As pursue occurs just after the end of your mêlee phase and compusory only for impetuous unit there is no problem with conformation.
_________________
Hasta la victoria Siempre!
Peter Lord dobeul impact

[Ramses II]

Thanks for the reply, but you have just repeated your earlier answer. You have not answered any of my questions.

For example the FAQ states that a unit must conform after a melee where it has the front edge of an enemy unit in contact with its flank or rear (not the. other way round as in your reply). Fine.

So, this means that Conformation may take place after a melee in the current player's phase, (as well as at the start of the next player's phase). It follows that the player's units having other types of contact with the enemy may also conform after the melee (if Impetuous they must conform). These contacts are described in the rules, and are not limited to the front edge / flank contact specified in the FAQ.

Or are you saying that conformation after a melee is now restricted to this single type of contact - which is not at all clear from the FAQ.
(This is why I was seeking a response from Herve himself).

[Brave Coeur]

My answers in your text in bold :

[footslogger]

[Ramses II]

Ok, Thanks all for your patience.

FS, that is almost correct, but not quite, hence part of my confusion.
It seems that now, Conformation still happens immediately after a melee but only where the victorious unit has an enemy unit engaging it's flank. Furthermore this is mandatory and applies to all units irrespective of whose phase it is, terrain, unit type or other factors.

Otherwise, you are correct that the opposing player is now forced to conform units that are in contact at the start of his phase, subject to the various exceptions.

=============
So, at the start of the player phase where there are enemy units in contact, does this conformation happen before any other movement?

[belinconnux]

Correct.
If you have to conform at the end of your melee phase with ennemy contacting your flank/rear, it's because your're still in melee.
_________________
Hasta la victoria Siempre!
Peter Lord dobeul impact