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Declaring Flank March
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Ackostokie
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 22 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 03, 2015 8:56 pm    Sujet du message: Declaring Flank March Répondre en citant
A couple of doubts on flank march

1) When do you tell your opponent that you are attempting a flank march. My thought would be after you have deployed your other two corps on the table.

2) When do you tell your opponent which flank your corp is coming on to.
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 03, 2015 10:36 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
1) you only have to said he can't see the corps.
2) when you roll 5 our 6 (except in first riound)
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Ackostokie
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 22 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 03, 2015 11:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks for your reply.

I think the actual disclosing to your opponent that you are attempting a flank march is important. I know he cant see the corps, but if you tell him before he deploys his troops. He may use the information to deploy his troops in expectation to counter the flank march. Especially if one side is a coast or river so he knows for certain which side the flank march is arriving on.
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Longtooth
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Sam Avr 04, 2015 8:09 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You don't need to tell your opponent that you have units in flank march.

Your opponent will clearly see that only two of your corps have been deployed on the table and he will need to guess whether the missing units are: (a) attempting a flank march; or (b) deployed in ambush.
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Longtooth
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Sam Avr 04, 2015 8:59 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
...further to my response above, you do have to reveal your flank march when you roll a 5 or 6 (or 6 on first turn).
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I never roll a six
Gladiateur


Inscrit le: 07 Oct 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 06, 2015 9:57 am    Sujet du message: Disclosing a flank march Répondre en citant
My understanding of the rules, based on the last paragraph of the first column on page 73 of the rules, is that if both players have chosen to flank march on the same flank, on the second player's first turn, the players compare the size of their respective flanking forces; the smaller force is driven back, arriving on Turn 2, and the larger flanking force arrives in its next turn immediately afterwards.
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sebastosfig
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 06, 2015 10:01 am    Sujet du message: Re: Disclosing a flank march Répondre en citant
I never roll a six a écrit:
My understanding of the rules, based on the last paragraph of the first column on page 73 of the rules, is that if both players have chosen to flank march on the same flank, on the second player's first turn, the players compare the size of their respective flanking forces; the smaller force is driven back, arriving on Turn 2, and the larger flanking force arrives in its next turn immediately afterwards.


You are right. However, the smaller corps will arrive on his own side of the table, whereas the bigger one will arrive anywhere on the table edge. Very Happy
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Ackostokie
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 22 Jan 2015
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MessagePosté le: Mar Avr 07, 2015 11:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi all, thanks for the replies, Ive also found a paragraph at the bottom of page 70 in the Ambush section

" If an entire army corps is placed in ambush, the player can roll the die each game-turn to determine CP (even if not used). This can confuse the opponent who does not then know if the corps is in ambush or on flank march."

So like you have said, I don't have to tell my opponent until, I get a 5 or 6 on the dice

Phil Very Happy
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Commodore
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MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 08, 2015 6:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ackostokie a écrit:

So like you have said, I don't have to tell my opponent until, I get a 5 or 6 on the dice

Phil Very Happy

That is correct, it is a sort of "on table flank march"
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sebastosfig
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 08, 2015 7:27 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Indeed, and pretty useful too Wink
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Sep 22, 2015 7:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Further to this, I agree that the "on table flank march" is usefull. However, could someone explain the processes here;

1) When does the player "dice" for the false flank march, at the start of each bound, or after one or both of the other on-table commands?

2) What is the process where both players decide to use "off-table" forces? Exactly when does each player take what particular action?

I assume that players deploy their on-table forces, revealing that two commands are off-table. Presumably each player "dices" each turn until one of them gets a 5 or 6. But what happens at this point?
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Mar Sep 22, 2015 8:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:

1) When does the player "dice" for the false flank march, at the start of each bound, or after one or both of the other on-table commands?

p 72 at the beginning of the movement phase.

Citation:
2) What is the process where both players decide to use "off-table" forces? Exactly when does each player take what particular action?

Sides A rolls at the beginning of its movement phases. Side B rolls at the beginning of its movement phases.

Citation:

I assume that players deploy their on-table forces, revealing that two commands are off-table.

p 72 each player may only have one command on flank march. I think you meant two -- one from each player. Yes you deploy normally. Opponent deploys normally.


Citation:
Presumably each player "dices" each turn until one of them gets a 5 or 6. But what happens at this point?

p 72-73
On page 73 tells you what happens under "driving back a flank march". i.e. both sides arriving on the same side.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Sep 22, 2015 9:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks for the fast reply.

Yes, I was asking for the detailed process when both sides had one command "off-table". The point being that either or both could be disguising on-table ambushes. This being the case, I presume that each player dices at the start of their own movement phase until someone throws a 5 or 6. But what is the precise set of actions at this point?

Player A throws 5/6, so must reveal whether his off-table command is a flank march, and if so, which flank. Am I right that player B either confirms his flank march on the same flank (where one or other is 'pushed back') or remains silent because his troops are either on the other flank or in ambush?
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A4
Auxiliaire


Inscrit le: 08 Oct 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Sep 22, 2015 11:48 pm    Sujet du message: Re: Disclosing a flank march Répondre en citant
I never roll a six a écrit:
My understanding of the rules, based on the last paragraph of the first column on page 73 of the rules, is that if both players have chosen to flank march on the same flank, on the second player's first turn, the players compare the size of their respective flanking forces; the smaller force is driven back, arriving on Turn 2, and the larger flanking force arrives in its next turn immediately afterwards.


This seems to be how the bottom of the left hand column of page 73 is normally played. However, that is not how I would read what is written there, in the English version. That says that "If both players have ordered a flank march on the same edge of the table, the corps with the fewest units is driven back." It does not say when or how you discover that both players have ordered a flank march on the same edge. Is that explained more fully elsewhere in the rules, or more clearly in the French edition?

If I had to rely purely on the words on p 73 I would say that if both sides have an invisible command each dices as normal. Only when one has rolled a 5 or 6 and declared his is marching around, say, the north edge would the other be asked if he is marching around the same flank and, if so, the smallest command would be driven on.

Though, I admit that is not the way it is normally played.

The trouble with the conventional way this is played is that, as Ramesses points out, it does not tally well with the last paragraph on p 70. That makes it clear that an opponent should not normally know whether a command he cannot see is ambushing or flank marching.

When p 73 is interpreted in the normal way what is the procedure? When both players have a command absent do they write and declare simultaneously whether it is in ambush or flank marching and, if the latter, on which flank?

Alan
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ethan
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 23, 2015 11:39 am    Sujet du message: Re: Disclosing a flank march Répondre en citant
A4 a écrit:


When p 73 is interpreted in the normal way what is the procedure? When both players have a command absent do they write and declare simultaneously whether it is in ambush or flank marching and, if the latter, on which flank?

Alan


Each side has to have noted on his deployment map what they are doing (flank march, ambushes, etc.). If both have a "hidden command" and one has rolled a 5-6/6 as appropriate they declare a flank march.

The informational flow in this case is clear as the person rolling a successful arrival MUST declare which flank they are arriving on or if there is no flank march they must be entirely in ambush - there are no other options.

The opponent then indicates if he has a flank march on that flank. If not then the flank march arrives as usual and the other player carries on rolling for arrival or to continue disguising their ambush.

I am simply not sure what the issue is here? Given the information flow neither side is revealing any more than the necessary information and the only other concern would seem to be cheating where someone did not live up to their deployment map...
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