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Conforming Units Already in Contact - some questions
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 25, 2021 9:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
For me the question here is this:

If the only way to resolve this situation is for a player to spend pips moving a unit, are they required to do so?
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Dim Juil 25, 2021 10:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
No, Ethan. Given sufficient CP, the player has the choice of using the points to move the unit away from this corner-to-corner contact (possibly to charge another enemy), or to conform the unit and use the CP elsewhere. 

If the unit is impetuous, the cost of moving elsewhere may make conformation more likely. 
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Zoltan
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 9:57 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
…..If the unit is impetuous, the cost of moving elsewhere may make conformation more likely. 


Just confirming that an impetuous unit is entitled to conform “for free†and that this takes precedence over an uncontrolled charge (against a new, valid enemy target).
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 11:08 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yup, conformation is “free†and occurs at the start of the movement phase.

But there is no precedence either way - the player is free to to let Impetuous troops continue fighting where they are (through conformation), or to choose to order them elsewhere if he has sufficient CP. 

However, it will cost 3CP if that movement does not result in contact with another enemy unit. Given that melees have already started on the battlefield, and the potential for friends to be in the way, this cost may be prohibitive at this point in the game.
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 2:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Imagine I am a unit in a ZOC of one enemy to my flank (which still must be respected) so requiring a quarter turn to engage. I am on the flank of another enemy triggering the clause in question. Do I HAVE to pay CP to quarter turn and engage?
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 3:46 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
Imagine I am a unit in a ZOC of one enemy to my flank (which still must be respected) so requiring a quarter turn to engage. I am on the flank of another enemy triggering the clause in question. Do I HAVE to pay CP to quarter turn and engage?

Hi Ethan,

because of the ZoC on your flank you can't conform on the flank of the touching unit. This is where the "if at all possible" clause kicks in.

Neither are you forced to engage the unit ZoCing your flank, though if you want to you'll have to pay the usual movement costs.

Dave
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 4:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agreed Dave.
P51 2nd bullet states
Citation:
ZoCs and restrictions on contact with the enemy must be respected and take precedence over the obligation to conform
In the case you propose, the unit must respect the enemy unit ZoC (being the "most threatening enemy"), and may just possibly also be subject to contact restrictions which would further restrict the possible actions.
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daveallen
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 4:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Yup, conformation is “free†and occurs at the start of the movement phase.

But there is no precedence either way - the player is free to to let Impetuous troops continue fighting where they are (through conformation), or to choose to order them elsewhere if he has sufficient CP. 

However, it will cost 3CP if that movement does not result in contact with another enemy unit. Given that melees have already started on the battlefield, and the potential for friends to be in the way, this cost may be prohibitive at this point in the game.

Okay, this is getting complicated now and straying away from just conformation.

Most conformation occurs as the final part of another movement (charge, pursuit or move to support), but this one stands alone.

It has to be done at some point in that Corps' movement phase, certainly. Other than that, I think the player can choose when.

If the player chooses to order unit C (HCv Impetuous) to charge another enemy unit it will cost only 1CP, or 2CP if it turns. But what if the player doesn't have any CPs left.

Can the player choose between conformation and uncontrolled charge? Is there really no precedence?

One argument is because it's uncontrolled it has to obey the priority for selecting an uncontrolled charge target - firstly to charge any unit directly to its front then if there is no unit directly to its front it conforms on the enemy it's in contact with as its nearest target.

Another view is that its priority is to continue the melee it was participating in and not go haring off after new enemy.

I'm inclined towards the latter on the grounds that the new rule seems to favour continuing an existing fight. But I'm really not sure.

Dave
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 6:30 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:
ethan a écrit:
Imagine I am a unit in a ZOC of one enemy to my flank (which still must be respected) so requiring a quarter turn to engage. I am on the flank of another enemy triggering the clause in question. Do I HAVE to pay CP to quarter turn and engage?

Hi Ethan,

because of the ZoC on your flank you can't conform on the flank of the touching unit. This is where the "if at all possible" clause kicks in.

Neither are you forced to engage the unit ZoCing your flank, though if you want to you'll have to pay the usual movement costs.

Dave


Go read the section again (p. 51) it is not just conforming that appears to be required.

"The phasing player should resolve all such situations during his movement phase _it all possbile_, either by confirmation, _by moving units_, or _by making charges against other enemies_."

In this case "moving units" is "at all possible" so is it required?
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 6:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Either take control/responsibility of the unit or it conforms of it's own accord.

You have a free choice.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 7:28 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
This is not really complicated, we just have to go through the logic spelled out in p51, starting with the OP that two opposing units remain in corner-corner contact after a melee. 

Paraphrasing we get:  
    Players must resolve the situation if possible, by conformation, movement or charging during the movement phase.
    • Player’s choice (no precedence stated).
    • This includes ‘uncontrolled charges’ made after all other movement
  1. A few unit types / situations do not require conformation 
  2. ZoCs and contact restrictions most be observed
  3. Impetuous units must charge, conform or pay 3CP to move elsewhere (player’s choice)
  4. After conformation, the enemy may evade
  5. This kind of conformation is not a charge. 

As we have already noted, there may be situations where the actual choices are restricted or even removed altogether, forcing a particular action or even inaction. That is the nature of the game. 

I might add that being less able to control Impetuous troops just feels right, causing them to get into situations that more disciplined troops might avoid. 
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 10:32 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Either take control/responsibility of the unit or it conforms of it's own accord.

You have a free choice.


In my example it cannot conform, it is in another units ZOC.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 10:38 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So I sits there pinned, like a lemon, and waits for the opposition to conform . Probably with rent a mob in attendance.
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daveallen
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Lun Juil 26, 2021 10:40 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:
In this case "moving units" is "at all possible" so is it required?


When you put it like that, yes it is required Cool

If possible. Wink

Dave
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ethan
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MessagePosté le: Mar Juil 27, 2021 2:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
So I sits there pinned, like a lemon, and waits for the opposition to conform . Probably with rent a mob in attendance.


But the rule requires you to act if possible, in this case it is "possible" but requires you to spend pips...
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