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Wheeling columns - how far can they move?
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions
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daveallen
Centurion


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 457
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 15, 2019 8:00 am    Sujet du message: Wheeling columns - how far can they move? Répondre en citant
Here's the problem (asking for a friend called Cyrus II Embarassed ) -

A) If you have a line of three Medium Swordsmen they can wheel 60° (sides of an equilateral triangle).

B) If you have a column of three Medium Swordsmen they can expand by two units while stationary

OR

C) The front unit of the column can wheel 90°, turn 90° and advance 0.5 UD. That's 1.5 UD more movement than expanding and the rearmost unit has travelled four UD. With a longer column it gets really silly.


I know certain turns and shifts allow units to move further than their distance, but this can't be right, can it?

I can't find in the rules or the FAQ where this might be restricted by, say, the distance moved by any particular unit.

Dave
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belinconnux
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 09 Sep 2009
Messages: 5229
Localisation: BORDEAUX, near Vana
MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 15, 2019 10:23 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I don't understand the objective to wheel 90°, then turn 90° ... Confused
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madaxeman
Tribun


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 857
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 15, 2019 12:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
belinconnux a écrit:
I don't understand the objective to wheel 90°, then turn 90° ... Confused


Dave is exploring the limits of fromage ... Rolling Eyes

If you wheel (forwards) by 90° and then turn 90° your (new) front edge has advanced by 1MU already from your starting position. You also have some possible extra movement remaining.

If you just expand from a column you cannot also move forwards in the same move.


This is really a question about what happens to the back unit of a column when the front of the column wheels through 90° and then turns.

Is it ...

\ >> (direction of wheel)
A1
A2
A3

becomes


A3A2A1

all facing up the page?
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Hazelbark
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 933
MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 15, 2019 2:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I believe the wheel of a column is governed clearly:

p 28 2nd sentence "No point of the front edge can move more than the allowed distance"
2nd paragraph.

p 29 1st bullet
"units must not exceed" and " The possible the outermost corner...is not the front rnak"
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Hazelbark
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 933
MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 15, 2019 2:58 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:


If you wheel (forwards) by 90° and then turn 90° your (new) front edge has advanced by 1MU already from your starting position. You also have some possible extra movement remaining.

If you just expand from a column you cannot also move forwards in the same move.


This is really a question about what happens to the back unit of a column when the front of the column wheels through 90° and then turns.

Is it ...

\ >> (direction of wheel)
A1
A2
A3

becomes

A3A2A1

all facing up the page?



So 1.5 to wheel 90 degrees. + 1 UD to turn. Going to have to do the math but HI no way. CV maybe a 2nd unit need math.

You first have to measure the corner that moves the furthest before the final turn.
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madaxeman
Tribun


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 857
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 15, 2019 3:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
I believe the wheel of a column is governed clearly:

p 28 2nd sentence "No point of the front edge can move more than the allowed distance"
2nd paragraph.

p 29 1st bullet
"units must not exceed" and " The possible the outermost corner...is not the front rnak.."


This is what in English English you'd describe as a 'handbrake turn' , where the rear of the column moves a huge distance because the front unit wheels and all the rest line up behind it.

If there are rules to prevent this (which Dave clearly hasn't read) they would presumably apply also to a move which included both a wheel and a turn. So this may already be fixed Smile
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Hazelbark
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Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 15, 2019 3:25 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:


If there are rules to prevent this (which Dave clearly hasn't read) they would presumably apply also to a move which included both a wheel and a turn. So this may already be fixed Smile


Assume both MI (40x40)

start:
A1
A2
A3
then 90 degree wheel facing left
1.5 UD
HOWEVER A3's front right corner has moved approximately 2.25 UD

So this move with MI and a column of 3 would be disallowed as the turn (+1 UD) would exceed the movement of 3 UD

But two MI could do this.
So clearly 3 CV could do this, but 4 cannot.
5 LC can.
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daveallen
Centurion


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 457
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 15, 2019 7:13 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Finally found the rule on this:

Page 29 WHEEL, bp 1, second sentence - "Units in a wheeling group must not exceed their maximum move distance."

My real concern was about how blocks of War Wagons manoeuvre (answer: they're tricksy). Also, there are several situations in the rules that allow units to exceed maximum move distances.

Dave
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Zoltan
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 187
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 15, 2019 7:30 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So it’s quite simple - the sharpness of the wheel is constrained by the length of the column:
- wheels can’t exceed 90 degrees
- no bends in a column
- no unit can move further than its “normal” movement distance when aligning to keep the column “straight”

I guess where a long column marches down a road with a sharp tun in it, players could agree (for aesthetic reasons) that the tail of the column need not flick around and leave the road, denying the column the road move bonus and looking visually naff (a lá curly felt terrain, spaghetti spears etc).
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Hazelbark
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Lun Avr 15, 2019 8:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
So it’s quite simple - the sharpness of the wheel is constrained by the length of the column:
- wheels can’t exceed 90 degrees
- no bends in a column
- no unit can move further than its “normal” movement distance when aligning to keep the column “straight”

I guess where a long column marches down a road with a sharp tun in it, players could agree (for aesthetic reasons) that the tail of the column need not flick around and leave the road, denying the column the road move bonus and looking visually naff (a lá curly felt terrain, spaghetti spears etc).


Yep. Although I am not sure you can have a turn in ADLG roads. But let's not get too pedantic now.
Laughing
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