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Using 6 of anything in a block is probably a mistake ...
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MarkC
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018
Messages: 15
Localisation: Australia
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 28, 2019 3:43 am    Sujet du message: Using 6 of anything in a block is probably a mistake ... Répondre en citant
In the discussion "Are heavy infantry worth the points", madaxeman wrote

madaxeman a écrit:

Using 6 of anything in a block is probably a mistake, almost certainly with Sp. they are an anchor and a rock in your line of other stuff that may well still lose, but by taking longer to lose give you opportunities elsewhere for your wider, cheaper or more pokey troops to win the game for you.

Not many armies get mediocre pike. They do the same job as spear, probably a bit better. In their absence, you’d take spear as a substitute

Seriously though, Sp are best as part of a plan, they are not really a plan in their own right.

Impetuous HI are a plan, Knights are a plan, Pike can be a plan, but Sp need to be part of a plan. Unless they are Spartans....


As a new player I assumed:

1. 6 is the optimum width for a block, and more and you need more command points to maneuver, and less and you risk being overlapped

2. if you had a good thing, more of it is even better.

Thus whilst spear aren't that impressive, if you could have a block of 6 pikes or 6 cataphracts or 6 impact heavy infantry I thought that would be pretty good. Am I being naive here?

Is it a case that a block of 6 really good things is too expensive and you are better off interspersing some cheaper troops to keep the costs down (trusting in the good troops to break through the enemy lines and get overlaps before your cheaper troops fail)? Or is it the case that mixing different troop types gives a whole which is greater than the sum of the parts (putting something more maneuverable on the flanks of the pike unit for example)?

Thanks

Mark C
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 28, 2019 9:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ADLG is a game that rewards having a plan and a theory of how your army will win. Most, perhaps virtually all, troop types are viable in ADLG provided you have built an army around their strengths and weaknesses.

Mass H Sp can be effective. I have seen Early Sumerian/Akkadians used successfully with masses of ordinary and mediocre heavy spear, but mass in that case really means mass - 14-16 H Sp designed to absorb the enemies best while you work onto the enemies not so good. What tends not to be effective is having lumps of troops without a clear plan on how to make them win...
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Snowhitsky
Prétorien


Inscrit le: 15 Juin 2015
Messages: 224
Localisation: Lancaster, UK
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 28, 2019 10:08 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The problem with a monolithic block is two-fold:

1. It poses a single type of threat (melee or shooting) to the opponent. He can therefore take the required countermeasure without too many difficulties.
2. It may prove so scary to your opponent that he sees no way of beating it and avoids battle.

Take for example two Classical Greek commands:

Command 1:

Ordinary General
6 Ordinary Heavy Spears

Command 2:

Ordinary General
5 Ordinary Heavy Spears
1 Ordinary LMI Javelinmen


Command 1 has no response to enemy skirmishers and CV. Even bowmen can take a couple of shots and move away with impunity. If it comes within one UD of terrain the enemy can overlap with a LI.

Command 2 gets to shoot once a turn if in range and LI/CV cannot approach to shooting distance in the open without risking the "buttocks of death" tactic. It can use terrain to protect one flank or to gain an advantage if not opposed by terrain troops.

Both commands get a minimum of one PiP with the general and another one. Command 1 will rarely make use of the extra PiP to manoeuvre. Command 2 can move the hoplites with the general and use the other PiP to move the javelinmen.

A Persian general with 5 Cv bow can be quite casual about how he fights Command 1 as he can easily evade or move away from it, shooting all the way. The one javelinmen of Command 2 makes things a lot more complicated. Not impossible but complicated. You have to pay attention to that javelinmen otherwise he will prevent one CV from evading. If the Persian prevents the buttocks of death tactic by holding back a CV to protect the threatened flank, he loses a shot. When the hoplites charge and the Persian CV evade, if they roll low that javelinmen might be able to move up and shoot a CV in the back.
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MarkC
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018
Messages: 15
Localisation: Australia
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 05, 2019 1:06 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
What is "buttocks of death"?

I vaguely recall hearing it referred to in DBA, and a Google search finds ""Buttocks of death" is a commonly used term to describe a situation in DBA when an element's rear edge kills another element. The most common example is when an element recoils into an enemy element's rear, destroying both elements. "

I don't see how it applies in ADLG.

Thanks

Mark C
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kevinj
Signifer


Inscrit le: 07 Fév 2017
Messages: 323
Localisation: Chesterfield, Derbyshire, UK
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 05, 2019 8:34 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The usual application in ADLG is when a unit is placed behind an enemy to block it from evading.
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