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Timing of post melee dice pluses
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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daveallen
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Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 04, 2018 7:24 am    Sujet du message: Timing of post melee dice pluses Répondre en citant
So, this occurred last night.

MSwd 2HW vs 1/2 MSwd 1/2Bow

Dice are 3:2 on the initial round of combat.

The Swd/Bw are entitled to a plus one for missile support.

The Halberdiers get a plus if they beat the Swd/Bw.

We assumed these two factors applied simultaneously in the same way as the armour/2HW factors.

Correct?

Dave
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 04, 2018 11:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
All mêlée modifiers are done simultaneously , except quality modifiers (p55) which are applied before all other mêlée factors and modifiers.

So both your modifiers are triggered at the same time so both apply effectively canceling each other out
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mar Déc 04, 2018 3:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agreed Dickstick.
This works out in the same way that the 2HW bonus cancels out the armour save.
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 05, 2018 12:00 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I thought the q&a sheet made a thing about not similtaneous, but a specific order, with an example 2hw and armour.

Order makes a differance especially v 2hw. If you get to a draw before they add their win bonus, then no loss and no 2hw win bonus e.g. by adding in elite

In this case I read the rules whilst Dave went to the loo and had to admit that i was the looser (as I was on the elite one v clive at reading a week earlier, damm). I am pretty sure I read 2hw before support, not simultaneous, although in this case both give the same result. I will check again
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 05, 2018 7:46 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Elite /mediocre are the quality modifiers that done first. Rest are simultaneously done.
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Mer Déc 05, 2018 8:33 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
See faq

2 Handed Weapon ability

Q : If a unit with 2HW attacks a spearmen unit with the Support capability, in which order should you resolve the effects of the capabilities ?
A : First apply the effects of the 2HW, then Support (like the armour effect).

Q : Does the 2HW ability just cancel the effect of Armour and Heavy Armour abilities ?
A : In practice the factors will have the same effect as cancelling the armour effect. Nevertheless, you need to apply all the factors as listed p16.


So generally works in favour of the 2hw, except for supported spears where they effectively loose their tie break bonus


Dernière édition par Mike Bennett le Mer Déc 05, 2018 2:20 pm; édité 1 fois
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Willkilla
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Inscrit le: 16 Oct 2019
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MessagePosté le: Ven Oct 18, 2019 2:34 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hello, can I get a clarification on the timing of the bonuses?

The FAQ says 2HW then support, but the rulebook says "when you win a melee." As stated above, the timing of the effects would make a big difference if 2HW should apply or not. Is there a specific list of modifier timings so I know what/what not to include before using the 2HW (or armor) post melee effects?
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Willkilla
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Inscrit le: 16 Oct 2019
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MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 22, 2019 12:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I guess my concern is more the Support addition.. What if you have support and you attack a spear that has support? Do you get your Support modifier and they don't get theirs'? Or is Support in the FAQ referring to missile support? If so that needs clarification because support is a totally separate concept
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Mar Oct 22, 2019 10:11 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Willkilla a écrit:
I guess my concern is more the Support addition.. What if you have support and you attack a spear that has support? Do you get your Support modifier and they don't get theirs'? Or is Support in the FAQ referring to missile support? If so that needs clarification because support is a totally separate concept


Support in ADLG is missile support. Its a post combat +1 modifier that can only be claimed by units who lose in the first round, unless they lose to someone heaviliy armoured.

Overlap is sometimes called support in other rules, but in ADLG its overlaps. Overlaps always get added to your base factor, win or lose.
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Zoltan
Centurion


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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 23, 2019 3:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
Overlap is sometimes called support in other rules, but in ADLG its overlaps. Overlaps always get added to your base factor, win or lose.


Erm RAW page 50:

Support
A unit engaged in melee can receive support from other friendly units... Confused
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 23, 2019 8:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
madaxeman a écrit:
Overlap is sometimes called support in other rules, but in ADLG its overlaps. Overlaps always get added to your base factor, win or lose.


Erm RAW page 50:

Support
A unit engaged in melee can receive support from other friendly units... Confused


Thats referring to an overlap, as it states the support comes from another friendly unit. In the context of the OP its missile support
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Willkilla
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Inscrit le: 16 Oct 2019
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MessagePosté le: Mer Oct 23, 2019 5:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That's great and all, but that nomenclature is never mentioned anywhere in the rules, so an outisder like me sees support in the faq and thinks it refers to supporting units. I shouldnt have to search the closed facebook group for answers
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 24, 2019 10:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Willkilla a écrit:
That's great and all, but that nomenclature is never mentioned anywhere in the rules, so an outisder like me sees support in the faq and thinks it refers to supporting units. I shouldnt have to search the closed facebook group for answers


Aaaah - I think I see.

The distinction is addressed in that section of the FAQ, where the text refers to a "unit with the Support capability"

That's different to the support modifier, which is generated by the presence of other units in overlap positions.

Capabilities are part of each units inherent, basic abilities (armour, weapon type, furious charge) whereas other modifiers (uphill, overlap, attacked in the rear etc) are sitational and generated by external factors.
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lionelrus
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Oct 24, 2019 7:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
All mêlée modifiers are done simultaneously , except quality modifiers (p55) which are applied before all other mêlée factors and modifiers.

So both your modifiers are triggered at the same time so both apply effectively canceling each other out

Even if modifiers are not simultaneous, eventualy result is the same, isn't it?
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Dim Oct 27, 2019 6:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So one of the things that is being worked on is standardizing word usage.

One of the effects of the FAQ translation process was imprecision. Now that was less important, because the game is meant to be played by players not by litigants. But it arises.

The edition being worked on, hopefully will correct some of the verbiage between rules and FAQ.

However, I can assure you the FAQ language referring to "support capability" is referring to "missile support capability". The "support modifier" is different.

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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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