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Was we right or wrong
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Baldie
Barbare


Inscrit le: 25 Juin 2017
Messages: 20
MessagePosté le: Jeu Nov 22, 2018 10:53 pm    Sujet du message: Was we right or wrong Répondre en citant
Hi All

Great game this evening in which my very capable opponent kindly rolled as many ones as possible to give me the game.

My Pikes were joined by a commander fighting some spear, my commander attached to the unit and also joined in for the combat.
The enemy's Knights with included commander hit me in the rear.

I managed to hold out and rallied my cohesion only to get another as I was later hit in the flank.

Now came the bit we did not know

Enemy commander was supporting but not engaged in the fight, we know he could not be shot at as he was classed as being involved in the combat but as he was not personally fighting we believed he did not get penalty for giving orders. Is this right? Also if my commander had attached to the unit but not joined in the combat would I have also not had the penalty to giving orders, we thought not hence why we decided the knight commander was not penalised in the movement phase.

I again managed to win but had a cohesion point.

I decided to rally rather than turn to face the Knight commander, who now did class as being in the combat and fighting as he is included so no choice, as I was still flanked so thought loosing the cohesion was a better bet. I hit the Knight commander in the rear with a LI, no cohesion loss, as it gave me a plus one in the combat.

I actually won the game on this turn but could have turned to face for free or tried to rally again in my next turn, didn't actually take a cohesion which was nice.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1464
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 1:07 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
If a unit with an embedded commander is in combat, the commander is in combat. There’s no choice.  All risks and penalties apply.

That’s the reason for the discount in points 
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 10:26 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
If a unit with an embedded commander is in combat, the commander is in combat. There’s no choice.  All risks and penalties apply.

That’s the reason for the discount in points 

Does “in combat†include being (only) in a support position?
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Gingerdave
Barbare


Inscrit le: 15 Sep 2017
Messages: 29
MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 11:56 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As the low-rolling opponent, I'll pitch in.

There was a pike unit (with an attached general) fighting spears to the front and HCv (with an included general) to the rear.

The pike general was fighting, so +1 to the factors and a chance of dying (this being about the only roll I got that wasn't a 1!).

The HCv general's unit was in a supporting position, which (if we have the rules right) doesn't give the +1 to the score, doesn't run the risk of dying if the combat is lost, and so we played it that he could give orders to other units for 1CP.

Sure, if the general gives +1 to the combat then there's the extra CP cost and risk of death - but if that +1 factor isn't available should the penalties apply as well?
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 2:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
P50 Melee 2nd bullet - A unit is considered in melee if ..... It is in contact with at least part of its front edge (ie not just by its front corner) against the flank or rear of an enemy

So a unit hitting the fank or rear of the enemy is in combat. If providing support as an overlap it is not.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 3:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Correct Alan. A diagram might assist.

PPP
PPP
MMXX

If the combat is as above, (where P is a unit of Pike and M and X are enemy units. P and X also have included commanders), then X is only supporting and not "engaged in melee" per p50. Consequently CP issued by commander "X" are not penalised, whilst those of commander "P" are penalised. However, if the combat was as follows

PPPX
PPPX
MM

Where X has moved into front edge contact with the flank of P (possibly causing a cohesion hit on P as per p59), then X is now "engaged in melee" and commander "X" is also penalised when issuing CP (though he will never suffer a combat loss in this melee, since it is still a fight between P and M)
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
Messages: 1464
Localisation: Londres Centraal.
MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 3:17 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
A unit in support cannot lose cohesion as a combat outcome. It’s the loss of cohesion in combat that triggers a dead general roll. So a general in a unit in support cannot end up being killed. 

They would however meet the definition for “in combat†in the situation you describe, so Command and control pips are impacted 
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Ven Nov 23, 2018 3:17 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Correct Alan. A diagram might assist.

PPP
PPP
MMXX

If the combat is as above, (where P is a unit of Pike and M and X are enemy units. P and X also have included commanders), then X is only supporting and not "engaged in melee" per p50. Consequently CP issued by commander "X" are not penalised, whilst those of commander "P" are penalised. However, if the combat was as follows

PPPX
PPPX
MM

Where X has moved into front edge contact with the flank of P (possibly causing a cohesion hit on P as per p59), then X is now "engaged in melee" and commander "X" is also penalised when issuing CP (though he will never suffer a combat loss in this melee, since it is still a fight between P and M)
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