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Artillery and Bowmen shooting
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Wallonix
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Inscrit le: 05 Sep 2018
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 06, 2018 12:58 am    Sujet du message: Artillery and Bowmen shooting Répondre en citant
Can artillery and bowmen units shoot in the shooting phase against opponents charging them ?
Also can catapults and trebuchets shoot overhead while on the same level ?
Wallonix
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 06, 2018 6:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
No.

The shooting phase comes after the movement phase so they can't shoot because they are already engaged in melee.

However, Bowmen's shooting is simulated by the +1 they get in the initial melee against mounted.

Also, Mixed Units and Swordsmen with bows get a +1 for missile support if they lose in the initial melee, except against heavily armoured opponents.

Dave
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Dernière édition par daveallen le Jeu Sep 06, 2018 9:03 am; édité 1 fois
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 06, 2018 8:28 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Sorry, missed the second question about artillery shooting overhead.

Any answer would be quite lengthy so best to look at the Specific Cases rule on page 46.

Mutters to self - bl**dy useless index. Embarassed
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Lun Sep 10, 2018 7:57 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
My index says shooting overhead is p49
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Wallonix
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 13, 2018 12:03 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks for the answer and I shall follow your ruling, but in my opinion since in a turn where most actions happen simultaneously it is logical to think that a unit witch cannot counter-charge such as Bowmen and Artillery should be able to shoot at charging enemies, think Charge of the Light Brigade and Mohacs and most Medieval battles involving large amount of longbowmen. It was just a thought anyway.
As for Trebuchet shooting overhead, that the only thing they can do, catapult ?? debatable.
Wallonix
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Sep 13, 2018 4:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So the close fire is built into the combat factors.

Bowmen get a +1 vs mounted in melee for exactly this reason.
Artillery in this period did not have anything like the firepower in movies or later artillery.

As for overheard shooting remember at this scale you would be shooting over large blocks and distances. The Trebuchet in its larger form was not really a battlefield weapon. There were smaller versions who might be. But again. How did you know whom to shoot at? The castle walls are stationary. But there were no forward observers correcting ranged fire. Lobbing anything over a line of friendly troops would necessarily be lobbing something with your eyes closed. Not likely to be precise.
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Wallonix
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MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 1:29 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
G'day,
Thanks for the answers, I agree about the trebuchet, really more of a siege weapon, as the artillery and bowmen shooting, as I said before I will follow your ruling, but I still like to hear others opinions. Question was actually raised because I could not find in the rules that they could shoot in the shooting phase, but also I could not find that they could not. Being a ex 6th edition player, I am use to ambiguity.
Regards,
Wallonix
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 9:28 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Who shoots is covered in "overview " p46
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 11:17 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Wallonix a écrit:
Question was actually raised because I could not find in the rules that they could shoot in the shooting phase, but also I could not find that they could not. Being a ex 6th edition player, I am use to ambiguity.


Shooting takes place in the shooting phase. This is set out in the sequence of play, which is on p26 ("Sequence of Play").

The same section states that units cannot shoot if they are engaged in melee.

As such this isn't really an opinion, its kinda what the rules say.... Generally speaking, Barkeresque Ambiguity is thankfully now a rather rarer commodity than it was back in 6th Edition days... Wink
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Mer Sep 19, 2018 2:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Wallonix a écrit:
Question was actually raised because I could not find in the rules that they could shoot in the shooting phase, but also I could not find that they could not.


Always true in new rules. Tough to find under pressure. Understandable.
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Wallonix
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 21, 2018 3:53 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
G'day,
I agree with the last two replies, this is just a game and that the rules, and to make the game playable certain mechanics have to be used, such as sequence of play. But in reality troops do not wait for their turn, they shoot at whatever they can, specially at troops charging them.
Everything who happens on the table, occur simultaneously, so this quite possible. Medieval bowmen could fire 3 to 5 arrows per minute, since a element is suppose to have around 500 men, that can be a lot of arrows in the few minutes it will take the charging unit to hit, also the bowmen rear ranks will be able to fire until contact. As for the artillery the guns would fire in sequence, some of them should be able to fire at charging enemies. Under the rules at the present, artillery are rather like sitting ducks, and unless they are behind fortifications, useless against a direct charge.
So this is my opinion, like to read comments about it, and yes I might be nits picking, but that just me.
Salut,
Wallonix
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ethan
Signifer


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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 21, 2018 11:09 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Wallonix a écrit:
G'day,
I agree with the last two replies, this is just a game and that the rules, and to make the game playable certain mechanics have to be used, such as sequence of play. But in reality troops do not wait for their turn, they shoot at whatever they can, specially at troops charging them.
Everything who happens on the table, occur simultaneously, so this quite possible. Medieval bowmen could fire 3 to 5 arrows per minute, since a element is suppose to have around 500 men, that can be a lot of arrows in the few minutes it will take the charging unit to hit,


What range do you think people are charging from compared to the range of the bow? Effective bow range is actually pretty short, modern bow hunters put it at 30-40 meters, let's call it 200 meters as we are shooting at an area target. Yes flight arrows can go much farther, but they are much less likely to be damaging. Remember as well that our archers are not carrying unlimited ammo.

Charging men probably cover that in less than 30s, a charging horse is probably around 40km/h so can cover it in less than 20s.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Ven Sep 21, 2018 12:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Wallonix a écrit:
G'day,
I agree with the last two replies, this is just a game and that the rules, and to make the game playable certain mechanics have to be used, such as sequence of play. But in reality troops do not wait for their turn, they shoot at whatever they can, specially at troops charging them.
Everything who happens on the table, occur simultaneously, so this quite possible. Medieval bowmen could fire 3 to 5 arrows per minute, since a element is suppose to have around 500 men, that can be a lot of arrows in the few minutes it will take the charging unit to hit, also the bowmen rear ranks will be able to fire until contact. As for the artillery the guns would fire in sequence, some of them should be able to fire at charging enemies. Under the rules at the present, artillery are rather like sitting ducks, and unless they are behind fortifications, useless against a direct charge.
So this is my opinion, like to read comments about it, and yes I might be nits picking, but that just me.
Salut,
Wallonix


The effect of normal amounts of shooting at chargers by troops who can shoot is already baked into in the hand to hand combat factors of troops who can shoot.

The effect of highly effective bursts of shooting by your troops at enemies charging them is simulated by you rolling much better combat dice than your opponent in hand to hand.

Either way, shooting during charges is resolved by one (combat) dice roll rather than two separate (shooting and combat) rolls.
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