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Korik
Archer
Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018 Messages: 58
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Posté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 4:40 pm Sujet du message: Slide in a charge move |
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Charging units, as part of their charge move, are allowed to slide sideways up to 1 UD (even unmanouevrable units), this sideways shift requiring that the unit moves at least 1UD straight forward
In a recent game we had this situation:
PA
LA
LB LB
PA is a pike unit, LA a friendly light infantry unit engaged in an established melee with an opposing light infantry (LB) which has a second light infantry providing overlap support - the pike unit is in base contact with the friendly light infantry
The pike declare a charge against the light infantry providing overlap support, and because they cannot interpenetrate their friendly light infantry as it is in melee it wishes to take advantage of the allowed slide
This gives two interpretations of what happens (15mm scale):
1. Because the pike would only move forward 20mm (base depth of the friendly LI and therefore only 1/2UD) it cannot declare the charge as it will not have made the required 1UD advance
2. The LI target, being charge by HI, must evade, therefore creating sufficient space for the pike to complete it's 1UD advance, and bringing it's front edge mathematically in line with the rear edge of the engaged LI and thus counting as overlap
The side slide in the charge does tend to make pike a tad nippy, if they tried to manoeuvre the above situation it would take them four moves and 5 CP! _________________ Korik |
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Maverick2909
Légionaire
Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017 Messages: 103
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
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Posté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 5:35 pm Sujet du message: |
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Your first interpretation is correct. You do any such maneuvering fist then declare a charge at which point your opponent declares his evade. Thus the time to slide has already passed. Pike indeed are tricky, I would recommend you don’t place LI immediately in front of them. |
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Korik
Archer
Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018 Messages: 58
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Posté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 6:26 pm Sujet du message: |
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Thanks Maverick
So, any slide in the charge must allow at least 1UD of forward movement irrespective of the target's response?
The pike belonged to my opponent, thought I'd done a good job of blocking him (even though he could have always disengaged and then charged the LI) _________________ Korik |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 6:36 pm Sujet du message: |
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Slide etc is done first it is allowed as per P28 slide and p36 charge movement.
Question of 1 UD forward is tricky.
But why not do an extension of the LI /pike column as per p36 charge movement and p31 2nd paragraph.
Does the job you want _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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Maverick2909
Légionaire
Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017 Messages: 103
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
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Posté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 6:37 pm Sujet du message: |
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That is correct. You did a fine job then blocking your opponents pike! |
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Korik
Archer
Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018 Messages: 58
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Posté le: Dim Aoû 19, 2018 10:19 pm Sujet du message: |
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Hi Dickstick. Reasonable solution but it does strike me a little of words and figures differ, circumventing the requirement of one rule by using another
Perhaps the slide rule should require a 1 UD forward move OR contact with the enemy - still makes unmanouevrable units bit nippy _________________ Korik
Dernière édition par Korik le Lun Aoû 20, 2018 5:31 pm; édité 2 fois |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 6:55 am Sujet du message: |
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Dickstick a écrit: | Slide etc is done first it is allowed as per P28 slide and p36 charge movement.
Question of 1 UD forward is tricky.
But why not do an extension of the LI /pike column as per p36 charge movement and p31 2nd paragraph.
Does the job you want |
Good catch Richard, except that this move costs 2 CP because the front unit of the group is in melee.
I don't see why the pike aren't permitted to make a slide and advance 1UD. There is nothing to stop them making that advance because the LI must* evade.
* assuming they are in the open - see Troops that must evade, page 38.
Dave _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4711
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 11:09 am Sujet du message: |
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-Pikemen can slide and charge, as LI must evade and PK can go ahead by 1UD wihout problem.
-Pikemen can also made a deployment for 2pip
-LI "A" can break off and pike slide and charge LI are destroyed if contacted after escape _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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Korik
Archer
Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018 Messages: 58
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Posté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 5:34 pm Sujet du message: |
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So, the consensus, in this particular scenario, seems to be that the pike can make a valid slide and charge because the intended target MUST evade
And following on from that, if the intended target does NOT need to evade, then the pike may expend 2CP to perform an extension into contact
That sound about right? _________________ Korik |
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Dickstick
Légat
Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016 Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
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Posté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 5:37 pm Sujet du message: |
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Both Dave and lionelrus are wrong on the 2 Command Points issue
melee has no relevance except for generals p27 and rallying p45
(don't rely on a quick look at the play sheet. the bullet point is missing for a reason . look at line above)
And it is not a difficult manoeuvre for Pike p32
forcing a one UD move would not allow charge if LI had been supported by eg HI
An amendment would be required if one wanted the LI to break off as well, but maybe that's a further discussion. _________________ Player 747 don't call me Jumbo |
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lionelrus
Magister Militum
Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009 Messages: 4711
Localisation: paris
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Posté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 6:21 pm Sujet du message: |
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Dickstick a écrit: | Both Dave and lionelrus are wrong on the 2 Command Points issue
melee has no relevance except for generals p27 and rallying p45
(don't rely on a quick look at the play sheet. the bullet point is missing for a reason . look at line above)
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correct _________________ "Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain. |
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daveallen
Tribun
Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016 Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
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Posté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 7:14 pm Sujet du message: |
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Dickstick a écrit: | Both Dave and lionelrus are wrong on the 2 Command Points issue
melee has no relevance except for generals p27 and rallying p45
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Doh! _________________ Putting the ink into incompetence |
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Korik
Archer
Inscrit le: 19 Juil 2018 Messages: 58
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Posté le: Lun Aoû 20, 2018 9:32 pm Sujet du message: |
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I think it's because an extension, like a 1/4 or 1/2 turn is a difficult manoeuvre for unmanoeuvrable troops, whereas pike only count 1/4 or 1/2 turns as difficult (page 32, 'Particular cases')
I would have thought it logical to include extension and contraction for pike in there as well for consistency _________________ Korik |
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Maverick2909
Légionaire
Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017 Messages: 103
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 21, 2018 6:05 pm Sujet du message: |
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I contend they are wrong on the slide and charge part as well. What if I had an HI who had to wheel 1 UD before I charged, then slid, then charged a unit who was 20mm away but evaded. I then proceed to roll a 1 and can’t move the UD forward.
Or what if I have the same scenario but instead of an LI it’s an LH. He *can* evade but that doesn’t mean he will.Â
No no, I contend the one UD forward minimum movement condition must be met before a charge is declared. |
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Maverick2909
Légionaire
Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017 Messages: 103
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
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Posté le: Mar Aoû 21, 2018 6:12 pm Sujet du message: |
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As to the extension, I thought that couldn’t be combined with a charge movement? Correct me if I’m wrogg but the only movement allowed before or during a charge maneuver is a wheel, slide, or straigh ahead. I’ll confer with the rules book when I get home. |
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