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most threatening enemy: flank or rear
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Mer Avr 18, 2018 9:17 pm    Sujet du message: most threatening enemy: flank or rear Répondre en citant
page 35 diagram "example of a zoc"

despite the example text I think that the rules page 34 can be read that the cavalry can charge A or B. it is zoc'ed by both and they are equally near measuring distance, so equally threatening. Of course A is a shorter move, but that is not a specified requirement

anyone disagree?
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
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Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 20, 2018 8:22 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think the most threatening rule on p34 is poorly written, but I really don't see how you read it as allowing the Cav to charge B. 




Going by theFAQ it should be something like:




1 enemy to front
2 nearest
3 covering more of front




Top of page 6 2nd item - makes it clear* that nearest is the more threatening than "covering most."




* as mud. 




This seems to have  arisen because of the FAQ saying the first ZoC you enter takes priority over any subsequent ZoC you enter. 




I suspect we can all find situations where this looks odd. 




Dave
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 20, 2018 2:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
p 34. most threatening.

It is clear that if someone exerts a ZOC on the front edge that takes priority over a ZOC that does not. Therefore A is the ZOC that applies.

I cannot find anyway to read that despite the words clearly saying so its not true.

All is clear.
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 20, 2018 5:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So which would be the most threatening if unit E was MSp?

Dave
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 20, 2018 9:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You say that "p 34. most threatening. It is clear that if someone exerts a ZOC on the front edge that takes priority over a ZOC that does not. Therefore A is the ZOC that applies. I cannot find anyway to read that despite the words clearly saying so its not true. All is clear."

Looking at specific wording it says "the enemy in front of the unit whose ZOC covers the largest part of the from of the unit". So for me A does not qualify. It is not in front and also does not ZOC part of th front. Of course we can debate if the corner is "part of th front" but A is still not "in front".

Moving to bullet 2 it is then about "nearest". It appears to me that both A and B ZOC the same side edge and are equally near, so there is equal priority o each of them
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 20, 2018 10:04 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:
So which would be the most threatening if unit E was MSp?



Now that is a good question.
It looks like "A" covers more of the front and is nearest. But E is to the front.

I instinctually would have said E.
But reading the full text of the example and the FAQ. It looks like A is the answer.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 20, 2018 10:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
You say that "p 34. most threatening. It is clear that if someone exerts a ZOC on the front edge that takes priority over a ZOC that does not. Therefore A is the ZOC that applies. I cannot find anyway to read that despite the words clearly saying so its not true. All is clear."

Looking at specific wording it says "the enemy in front of the unit whose ZOC covers the largest part of the from of the unit". So for me A does not qualify. It is not in front and also does not ZOC part of th front. Of course we can debate if the corner is "part of th front" but A is still not "in front".

Moving to bullet 2 it is then about "nearest". It appears to me that both A and B ZOC the same side edge and are equally near, so there is equal priority o each of them


I see what you are saying now, however, from the FAQ:
Citation:
The most threatening enemy unit is, in following order of priority:
 The nearest one who’s ZoC covers part of the units front,
 The nearest one who’s ZoC covers part of the flank or rear of the unit.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Avr 20, 2018 10:07 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
PS I think the FAQ is clearly implied by the beginning of bullet two. "If no enemy exerts a ZOC on the front edge..." SO that is why the FAQ is consistent. And the diagram is accurate.
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
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MessagePosté le: Sam Avr 21, 2018 2:37 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
 Now that is a good question.
It looks like "A" covers more of the front and is nearest. But E is to the front.

I instinctually would have said E.
But reading the full text of the example and the FAQ. It looks like A is the answer.

This is going to depend on what you interpret the first priority of "in front of the unit" to mean. 

There's no doubt E & F are in front, and I think you'd agree D is in front (although not directly to the front) but A? 

You'd have to take in front to mean wholly or partially in front of a line extending the front edge. Which is conceivable if a bit counter intuitive. 

Then we come to Mike's objection. Does A exert a ZoC on the front edge of the Cav? I'm assuming his point is that ZoCs don't extend into/through enemy units. This would be obvious if the rear corner of the Cav was a millimetre closer or further away from A. Then you'd see either a shadow in the ZoC or the ZoC exerting pressure on the front of the Cav. 

Dave
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daveallen
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Sam Avr 21, 2018 2:46 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
PS do we agree with the priorities I identified above:

1 enemy to front
2 nearest
3 covering more of front of unit
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Mike Bennett
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MessagePosté le: Sam Avr 21, 2018 6:39 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agreee those are the priorities for ZOCs from in front. The flank ones then come after this

Nb item 2 is not in the rules, but added by FAQ. It is a moot point if 2 is the most threatening in the actual rules and whether this is an amendment or a FAQ clarification. Even if it were not the most threatening it would still be the one hit first by a charge, and therefore the one lined up on.
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