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Early Franks
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Luddite
Archer


Inscrit le: 15 Nov 2017
Messages: 52
MessagePosté le: Lun Mar 05, 2018 10:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Um, yes.
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Snowcat
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Lun Mar 05, 2018 11:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
@Hazelbark - you don't think the 2 extra HC (Alamanni) make up for that? Can they not deal with enemy LH/Cv who come too close to the Ally corps? Plus there is still 1 Bw there to shoot as well.

I understand about slightly diminishing the elan of the Frankish cav corps, but thought getting 2 more HC on a wing might offset that.

And by "You can tuck them inside 1 HI and any middling CV that charge them risk destruction as you will have supports" did you mean something like this: HI HI HI Bw Bw HI, or HI HI Bw Bw HI HI ?

You definitely seem to prefer the original French example list before I recently messed with it. Ironically it was almost identical to one of my previous ones anyway. Cool

@Luddite - I admire your courage! Smile
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Luddite
Archer


Inscrit le: 15 Nov 2017
Messages: 52
MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 06, 2018 7:51 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:


@Luddite - I admire your courage! Smile


Indeed!

It won us the Burton Doubles with our Tamils at BadCon this year.

Very Happy
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Snowcat
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 06, 2018 8:02 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Yes but you had lots of heffalumps!

Shocked
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ethan
Signifer


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 347
MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 06, 2018 12:23 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Luddite a écrit:
In ADLG you don't really need to worry too much about flanks.


Hazelbark a écrit:
Ummmm. NO.


Luddite a écrit:
Um, yes.


Both of these are correct and it depends on armies, timing, and game play. ADLG combat tends to resolve fairly quickly and ADLG games create "facts on the ground" that often can't be overcome with a simple flank attack. A flank attack that would have been devastating 3 turns earlier likely doesn't matter if you get it started when you have lost 20 of 21 attrition points in your army.

That said flank attacks are generally pretty devastating - especially to your more important troops that you are expecting to win the game.

My perspective is that a slow developing flank attack that doesn't really get started until 2-3 turns after the main lines have clashed is most likely not to be very effective. Hence, no you don't need to worry too much. This is often a central challenge for larger armies - yes you will get to the flanks, but will do it too late to change the course of the game.

What does matter is a flank attack that disrupts your main effort. If your main troops (Heavy knights, elephants, whatever) are engaged have not yet won and are hit in the flank creating a situation in which they can't or are much less likely to win then that is a real problem.

What also matters are fast moving flank attacks that hit BEFORE you can get engaged. These have the potential to create "free" kills and disrupt your main attack before it matters.
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Snowcat
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 06, 2018 12:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
ethan a écrit:

What also matters are fast moving flank attacks that hit BEFORE you can get engaged. These have the potential to create "free" kills and disrupt your main attack before it matters.


Such as from an army with plenty of impact cavalry?
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 06, 2018 6:09 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Snowcat a écrit:
@Hazelbark - you don't think the 2 extra HC (Alamanni) make up for that? Can they not deal with enemy LH/Cv who come too close to the Ally corps? Plus there is still 1 Bw there to shoot as well.

I understand about slightly diminishing the elan of the Frankish cav corps, but thought getting 2 more HC on a wing might offset that.

And by "You can tuck them inside 1 HI and any middling CV that charge them risk destruction as you will have supports" did you mean something like this: HI HI HI Bw Bw HI, or HI HI Bw Bw HI HI ?

You definitely seem to prefer the original French example list before I recently messed with it.

Corps 3:
Ordinary allied general included -6
2 Warriors Heavy Impetuous Infantry Elite 20
2 Warriors Heavy Impetuous Infantry 16
1 Bowmen Mediocre 5
1 Light infantry bow 4
2 Noble heavy cavalry 18


I preferred the French version for its clarity of doctrine. I can see what he was trying to achieve. I added your 3rd Corps here to make it easier to discuss.
But I don't want to overweight my thoughts. For me you are not getting enough out of your strategist in that French list either. I rather have the 2 HC there, but you need to buy them in an ally. The whole doctrine of the French list is to deliver a mass of elite HI into the enemy. Anything that weakens that plan risks being neither fish nor fowl.

Is your alternative very bad? No. It just starts to pull the focus away.

You new 3rd corps has an ordinary general and now you have two significant maneuver pieces. Originally it had one for an ordinary general. The HI which will likely want to trundle forward each turn get the general. The CV get the minimum 1 CP you have. I presume the LI is attached to the HI or been forgotten somewhere because you rapidly will run out of CP to worry about it. This is an OK command when the Corps is on the flank and the CV Corps is either on the outside of this Corps so you have 6 HC or you have the 4 HC on the far flank. But the HC just risk getting tangled with bad CP.

As for Tucking in. Yes you could go HBBHHH or I sometimes put the bow inside the meaning against the HI of a 2nd corps. This is when I don't want to expose them to a mounted move to the flank or I expect CV in front of my HI line so I want to shoot at them.
Citation:
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daveallen
Tribun


Inscrit le: 28 Jan 2016
Messages: 742
Localisation: Rugby & CLWC
MessagePosté le: Mar Mar 06, 2018 8:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think Luddite maybe has a point about not worrying over flanks with this army, provided you get terrain...

For a look at how it performed in a 300pt doubles competition see:

https://despertaferres.wordpress.com/2018/01/22/godendag-2018-to-be-perfectly-frank/

22 x HSwd Impetuous Elite
4 x HC Elite
5 x LI

and Clovis as Strategist CinC

It was certainly no pushover.

Dave
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Snowcat
Vétéran


Inscrit le: 07 Jan 2017
Messages: 162
MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 07, 2018 2:07 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
@Hazelbark - I follow most of what you've said. However, with the French 3rd command, there's still the MC and LI to move. Is that so different from 2 HC?

I'm not sure what you mean here: "I sometimes put the bow inside the meaning against the HI of a 2nd corps"

@daveallen - all very encouraging. You certainly took a very 1D version of the Franks. I presume the table size was proportionately enlarged for the 300pts games? (Hard to tell from the photo.) I also wonder if certain armies benefit from the larger games and what that offers them compared with others.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Mer Mar 07, 2018 11:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:


It was certainly no pushover.



You're right its not a push over. especially with everyone attacking if frontally as the blog suggested except for the Cataphracts which apparently cut through.

Look I love HI impetuous armies. I've won two US Team periods with armies that had them as the dominant troop type (Libyan Egyptians and Ostrogoths). Both events I went 5 out of 5 wins.

In all ten games people tried toe-to-toe. Apparently more gamers need to read about not frontally assaulting the Maginot Line, Pickett's Charge or Agincourt I supposed would be more period. Alexander the Great liked turning actions too.

I'm just saying that because muppet people like Madaxeman dashes his troops against the craggy rocks does not mean that others should not move to flanks. Ethan summed it up well above.
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