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Why Missile Support is the Worst Rule in the Game
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Maverick2909
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Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017
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MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 2:23 am    Sujet du message: Why Missile Support is the Worst Rule in the Game Répondre en citant
Hey everyone! So I have been playing ADLG for about a year now. I am really loving the game and I would say I have 30+ games under my belt now. The rules set is probably one of the better ones I have seen over the years and I have come to appreciate its simplicity yet historical authenticity. All that said, there is one rule that REALLY bothers me, so much so that I have felt compelled to formulate this write up in the hopes of convincing others of the same. That rule is of course the Missile Support rule.

First off, lets start by going over what the missile support rule is. From page 18 of the core rulebook on the right hand column of the page:

"If a unit with missile support is charged on its front edge by an enemy unit and loses the melee, add +1 to its die roll before determining the outcome of the combat. This only applies when losing in the first phase of a melee. This bonus is cumulative with that of armor or heavy armor.

The missile support ability applies against any opponent except those with the heavy armor ability..."

Flipping over to the budget table on page 74 we can see that the missile support upgrade for an infantry unit costs 1 point per unit.

So to summarize, the pros and cons of missile support are:
Pros: +1 in combat
Cons: Costs 1 point, only applies if you lose, only applies on the first round of combat, situational

Ok, so now that we have outlined just what the missile support rule is and what it costs, let's first compare to some similar rules. How about Impact, that's a popular one! Impact is detailed on page 17, and while I won't list the entire rule out here as it is several paragraphs long and we should all be familiar with the rule by now, I will point out that Impact also costs 1 point per unit.

The Pros and Cons of Impact are:
Pros: +1 in combat
Cons: Costs 1 point, only applies on the first round of combat, situational

Notice the difference there? Comparing the pros and cons of the two, one applies for ANY roll you make, the other applies only if you lose the first round of combat. That's a pretty big deal! Now I know what you'll say "but impact is more situational than missile support!" and while this maybe true, over the 30 plus games I have played, I would trade that off chance of situationality of impact vs the limited application of missile support any day, and a good player through maneuver and proper deployment can mitigate that situationality.

But you aren't convinced I can tell, how about we examine another upgrade, the 2 handed weapon found on page 16 on the right hand column, the cost for a 2HW is 1 point. Lets look at the pros and cons:
Pros: +1 in combat, situational tie breaker
Cons: Costs 1 point, only applies if you win (kinda)

Notice the difference there? While the cost is the same and the effect only applies if you win (in contrast to the missile support loss) the 2HW applies during every round of combat. On top of that, it wins ties vs spear and pike! That's a pretty sweet upgrade!

Ok ok ok, I can tell you're still skeptical, and I understand. How about we give it one more comparison, the pavise! Found on page 18 as well, on the left hand column this time and it also costs 1 point per unit.
Pros: +1 to protection
Cons: Costs 1 point, only applies if you lose, situational (only works for shooting)

notice the difference? The pavise will work during any shooting taken by the unit, not just the first time its shot at. Hmmm pretty interesting huh!

Lastly, lets evaluate an upgrade that is more powerful and see how it compares, lets focus on armor. Armor is found on page 16 at the bottom of the left hand column. Armor unlike our previous examples, costs 2 points. Lets look at the pros and cons:
Pros: +1 to protection, +1 in combat
Cons: Costs 2, only applies if you lose, situational (cancelled in furious charge or if opponent has armor)

Oh nifty, its like they combined pavise and missile support in one rule! Oh but wait what is that? It's better because, oh yeah, it applies every turn of combat or shooting, not just the first!

In summary, missile support has a lot of similarities with other in game mechanics. However, it just falls short in comparison in every way to every other in game ability. I've really tried to make it work, I have. I love backing up my 8 Pictish medium spear with some fancy missile support, only to realize I could have spent those 8 points on an entire additional unit.

There are a multitude of ways to fix the rule, but as it stands presently it's just not worth taking. I always upgrade impact, I always upgrade 2HW, I usually always upgrade armor, I NEVER upgrade missile support any more. It's just plain bad.

If you've made it this far, thank you for reading. Please feel free to tell me I'm wrong and give me your success story. I want to like it, I really really do, but I just can't.

Stanton
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JohnTheBoring
Auxiliaire


Inscrit le: 15 Juil 2015
Messages: 83
Localisation: Wirral
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 9:44 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You don't seem to be saying the rules fail to simulate the effect of missile support et cetera. You seem to be complaining the points system means some things are better value than others. So if we make the points values, say, ten times larger and reduce missile support to eight or nine points would that solve your problem?

Personally I think it is horses for courses. Armies with missile support were expecting to face opponents who it would be useful against.
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Nightingale87
Gladiateur


Inscrit le: 06 Avr 2017
Messages: 44
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 10:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I get your point. But I think that as u state "impact is more situational". So sometimes 1 pt will be too expensive for impact, and sometimes 1 point will be cheap for impact. It all depends on the "situation". I think it´s pretty even there.

Missile support wont let u down against any enemy. While Armour won´t apply against, as u said, furious charge, equal armour, BETTER armour, and ELEPHANTS. So again, I want my unit facing enemy elephants to have missile support, not armour. That makes 1 point spend in armour TOO expensive...useless.

Missile suport is applied BEFORE the resolution of combat, while 2hw is applied after, thus missile support can (during the first round) cancel the benefit of 2hw. Still I´d take 2hw. BUUUT. The nature of units able to take 2hw are usually inf/blades. And missile support can come in other fashion, with heavy spearmen for example, that makes them extra tough against cav. Or heavy inf, which makes it better against inf.

Pavise...ok...but its only against shooting, it kinda leaves u in the open in combat. So again, Quite situational in my opinión. If the situation is shooting....its obviously better that impact, 2hw and missile support. If its combat...well...not so much.

And missile support is also a rule that applies (at no extra cost) to mixed units that have some kind of missile, thus it has another function.(the rule, not the skill)

To sum up, again, I do get what you are saying, but even if missile support usually doesn´t pay itself, or is too expensive in comparisson to other skills, I have it the way it is. The option of multiplying any other point cost times 10 and making missile support 8 times more expensive is not really appealing.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 12:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agreed
Boot on other foot a second, if we had free rein to re-cost things, what would missile support be?
- Free seems a bit cheap
- Fractions get tedious to calculate 
- Rejigging the entire cost structure . . . 

While I sympathise with the issue expressed, it does represent a benefit that needs a non-zero cost, and 1 is the cheapest. 
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Maverick2909
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Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017
Messages: 103
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 1:43 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
@john & Ramses, you all are correct, if we could have fractions or if the point standard was 400 instead of 200 this would be a non-issue as you could make it cost less.

The historical accuracy is *fine* in my book. Could it be done better? Sure, but it is passable as a rule and has been around since DBM so there is a precedent for it.

IF I was to suggest a rules change, I would suggest making the missile support upgrade similar to the mixed units rule but it’s light troop shooting not LMI. Essentially it would let the unit shoot 2 UD at a -1 to hit. Then separate out the missile support upgrade from the missile support rule that also applies to mixed units or units equipped with bows.

Another option I thought of was having it apply every combat round if you lose but it never applies if the opponent has armor. I think this would be pretty balanced as well.
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Maverick2909
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MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 4:27 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So after conferring with a friend, I think we have settled on a solution that would be even more historical than its current iteration.

Make the missile support apply to winning or losing, but only applies if the unit receives a charge to its front and still doesn’t apply against heavy armor.

This would slightly increase the value of missile fire rule while also making the rule more historically accurate. 
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 7:15 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So you are really only evaluating the purchased ability for units that buy missile support and don't have it due to other missile capabilities.

As you stated most people don't buy it.

If you are a roman legion facing Gauls or Germans. The missile support if worth 1 full point. Because the odds of now surviving the first round of combat become pretty darn good. Would I equip 12 Legion and auxilia units with it? No. But if I Could I would not equip them all with armor either. And I certain don't take them all as elite. But would I buy about 6....yes I would.

It is also very helpful for the units repelling impetuous cavalry as well another threat to Romans.

Lastly if you are likely to face elephants, missile support is one of the few worthwhile things.

The wrinkle of giving missile support when you win, really turns the impact rather significantly and you should look at the stats for what that does.
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fdunadan
Tribun


Inscrit le: 12 Juin 2009
Messages: 978
MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 9:14 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
And even if the support is only in the first round, so are impact and impetuous charge...
if you're a HI facing a Cav with impact in the open and lose by 1: you lose 2 cohesion points, therefore fighting at +0 for the second round, and having 2 cohesion points left...
if you have support, this is a draw and you fight at +1 for the second round...

As of mixed unit (usually MI) this is even more helpful against opponents with impact or impetuous charge. The 1pt cost of the support can make your ligne stand and allow you to transform a potential breaktrough in a slow attrition fight.
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 01 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Fév 06, 2018 10:26 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Maverick2909 a écrit:
So after conferring with a friend, I think we have settled on a solution that would be even more historical than its current iteration.

Make the missile support apply to winning or losing, but only applies if the unit receives a charge to its front and still doesn’t apply against heavy armor.

This would slightly increase the value of missile fire rule while also making the rule more historically accurate. 


Applying to winning or losing would make it better than "Impact", as it would apply always, against all enemies.

Honestly, don't let it bug you. I think everyone feels that it is probably the one thing in the points system that is bit overpriced, but also no-one really wants to go down the rabbit hole of doubling all of the points values in the book just so a smattering of armies might choose to take missile support a little more frequently than they do now.

The other thing to bear in mind is that as far as I can see it's pretty rare, and is always optional in every list it comes up in. So no-one is being forced to spend anything on support either.
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Maverick2909
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Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017
Messages: 103
Localisation: Oklahoma City, OK
MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 07, 2018 1:39 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
Maverick2909 a écrit:
So after conferring with a friend, I think we have settled on a solution that would be even more historical than its current iteration.

Make the missile support apply to winning or losing, but only applies if the unit receives a charge to its front and still doesn’t apply against heavy armor.

This would slightly increase the value of missile fire rule while also making the rule more historically accurate. 


Applying to winning or losing would make it better than "Impact", as it would apply always, against all enemies.

Honestly, don't let it bug you. I think everyone feels that it is probably the one thing in the points system that is bit overpriced, but also no-one really wants to go down the rabbit hole of doubling all of the points values in the book just so a smattering of armies might choose to take missile support a little more frequently than they do now.

The other thing to bear in mind is that as far as I can see it's pretty rare, and is always optional in every list it comes up in. So no-one is being forced to spend anything on support either.


Well, technically it would probably put it on par with Impact as it would be just about as situational as impact given it would only apply when charged (not when you do the charging) and would still not apply against heavy armor.

I try not to let it bother me, but my Picts say otherwise! Very Happy
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AvogadroTheMole
Frondeur


Inscrit le: 14 Juin 2016
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MessagePosté le: Mer Fév 07, 2018 11:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Maverick2909 a écrit:
madaxeman a écrit:
Maverick2909 a écrit:
So after conferring with a friend, I think we have settled on a solution that would be even more historical than its current iteration.

Make the missile support apply to winning or losing, but only applies if the unit receives a charge to its front and still doesn’t apply against heavy armor.

This would slightly increase the value of missile fire rule while also making the rule more historically accurate. 


Applying to winning or losing would make it better than "Impact", as it would apply always, against all enemies.

Honestly, don't let it bug you. I think everyone feels that it is probably the one thing in the points system that is bit overpriced, but also no-one really wants to go down the rabbit hole of doubling all of the points values in the book just so a smattering of armies might choose to take missile support a little more frequently than they do now.

The other thing to bear in mind is that as far as I can see it's pretty rare, and is always optional in every list it comes up in. So no-one is being forced to spend anything on support either.


Well, technically it would probably put it on par with Impact as it would be just about as situational as impact given it would only apply when charged (not when you do the charging) and would still not apply against heavy armor.

I try not to let it bother me, but my Picts say otherwise! Very Happy


p.18, 2nd paragraph of the Missile Support section: "If a unit with missile support is charged on its front edge by an enemy and loses the melee, add +1 to its die roll before determining the outcome of the combat."

I take this to mean that you only gain support in the 1st phase when not charging. This probably only makes you more unhappy with the cost of the ability. I happen to sympathize and have never found myself taking it except as a place to put that last point or two. However, it is astonishingly good in a few circumstances and I love its effect in mixed units, which arguably get it for free.
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Maverick2909
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Inscrit le: 01 Juil 2017
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Fév 08, 2018 3:23 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AvogadroTheMole a écrit:

I take this to mean that you only gain support in the 1st phase when not charging. This probably only makes you more unhappy with the cost of the ability. I happen to sympathize and have never found myself taking it except as a place to put that last point or two. However, it is astonishingly good in a few circumstances and I love its effect in mixed units, which arguably get it for free.


Haha I completely glossed over the fact that it only works on if you're charge as is... Yes it does make me somewhat more unhappy! I will say it is handy on units where it's included and I always try to take mixed units if I can!

Cheers,
Stanton
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