Art De La Guerre

[Mike Bennett]

Hesitant corps pg80, bp2;

In turn 1, before testing for reliability, can a defender voluntarily reveal an unreliable corps ambush if the enemy come within 4ud? BP2 (voluntarily revealing an ambush) only mentions corps already established a hesitant, unlike bp1 on moving and shooting which explicitly includes corps which have “not yet tested”,

As a follow on question, if the unreliable corps can voluntarily reveal are they automatically reliable no matter what they roll as they deploy within 4ud, or does “comes within” require an active enemy movement?

[AlanCutner]

Not directly a response to your question but mildly relevant. In a recent game a player deployed his skirmishers within 4UD of an ambush from an enemy allied corps. It was ruled the ally was automatically reliable if there were any troops in the ambush. Ofcourse the deploying player wouldn't know if there were troops in the ambush at that point.

[Mike Bennett]

[KevinD]

I agree with Mike. You have to come within 4UD of a unit, not an ambush marker, to make the hesitant corp reliable. You have to come with 1 UD of a non-fakeambush marker to make the hesitant corp reliable.

The owner of hesitant troops in ambush cannot voluntarily reveal the ambush, he must wait for them to be discovered, usually by enemy coming with 1 UD.

To answer your original question, I don’t think a player who has not yet tested his unreliable or allied general can voluntarily place his troops on the table just be ease the enemy are within 4 UDs of it but it would be good to get the powers that be to rule on this.

[Longtooth]

I would argue that unreliable troops in ambush (who have not yet made their first activation roll) are allowed to reveal themselves if any enemy comes within 4BW.

Second bullet point under hesitant corps (P 80) specifically refers to 'hesitant corps' not 'hesitant corps or those of an unreliable or allied corps that has not yet tested'.

Happy to be proven wrong, but that is how I read it.

Jesse

[Dickstick]

Food for thought.
Is a an allied/unreliable command reliable before the first activation roll?

P80 Roll makes them hesitant ie a change.

Becoming reliable bullet point 4.
"A hesitant Corp becomes reliable again "

Might be a translation issue? But we may have a sequence of reliable/unreliable/reliable.

I'd assumed we only had unreliable/reliable sequence.
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[Zoltan]

P.77 para 4 sentence 2 provides an absolute right to reveal units in ambush during the opponent's movement phase.
"A player can also reveal units in ambush during the opponent's movement phase as soon as an enemy unit is or comes within 4 UD of the marker."

Thus, if during game turn 1 an invader moves to/within 4 UD of a defender's allied/unreliable corps ambush marker (before the defender has had an opportunity to test the corps for hesitancy), actual units may be deployed, removing the need for a hesitancy test in the defender's first turn. A fake ambush is NOT revealed in these circumstances.

[KevinD]

I read “can” to mean it is voluntary. Hesitant corps can’t voluntarily reveal troops.

[Longtooth]

[Za Otlichiye]

Completely moot. I suspect "A hesitant corps" in the 2d bullet is intended as a shorthand for " The troops of a hesitant corps, or those of an unreliable or allied corps that have not yet tested" found in the 1st bullet. But it's not, so...

It would be so much easier if it said "An unreliable or allied corps is hesitant until it becomes reliable. It becomes reliable: * if it rolls anything but 1 on its first activation roll..."

[daveallen]

I think the main point here is that this seems to be a way of finessing the reliability rules and therefore the defender shouldn't be allowed to reveal an allied/unreliable corps' ambushes in this way.

However, if you disagree, consider this:

If the defender chooses to reveal an ally's ambush when the attacker moves troops within 4 UD (but not 1 UD) of the ambush, does this meet the reliability trigger condition?

The point here is that the rule for triggering has different conditions for ambushes and deployed troops.

At the point the attacker moved units within 4 UD of the ambush they had not met the relevant condition.

Once the ambushing unit is revealed/deployed, the condition for deployed units applies. Which is that the enemy moves a unit within 4UD of of a deployed unit.

If the attacker stops their move when the ambush is revealed, how is the trigger for deployed units met?

Too devious?

Dave
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[Mike Bennett]

Dave's suggestion seems sensible to me, and in line with the rules as written. Guessing what Herve intended, or should have written, is an inexact science.

[KevinD]

I agree with the thrust of Dave’s suggestion that revealing the ambushing unit is not intended to be allowed by the rules (and thus should not be allowed), but his bit about “deployed units” is reading an extra adjective into the rule and is not what they actually say. They say “ comes with 4 UDs of one of the corps units”.

The powers that be need to clean up what is actually allowed here.

[MC_Delicatessen]

Interesting one this and is still open right?

My take is that the book says "a hesitant corps cannot voluntarily reveal its ambushes". Before the first activation roll, it's not hesitant yet. So, I think, on the first turn, before the activation die roll, if the opponent comes within 4UD then the unreliable/ally can reveal their ambush, and hence avoid becoming hesitant.

I think this is fair enough - it's up to the opponent to realise that there is a potentially hesitant command's ambush and not to not go within 4UD on the first turn. The trade off is that the other player is taking an almighty risk with an unreliable/ally ambush. If it becomes hesitant that ambush is crippled as only triggered/if the opponent comes within 1UD and cannot be be voluntarily revealed until the command is activated.

I like it TBH. And I won't be sticking my unreliable elephant general in a mid table forest ambush any time soon!

[fdunadan]

And since a corps become totally reliable if an ennemy unit come within 4 UD, the question has no problem...
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