Art De La Guerre
Bienvenue sur le forum de discussion de la règle de jeu l'Art De La Guerre
 
FAQFAQ RechercherRechercher Liste des MembresListe des Membres Groupes d'utilisateursGroupes d'utilisateurs S'enregistrerS'enregistrer
ProfilProfil Se connecter pour vérifier ses messages privésSe connecter pour vérifier ses messages privés ConnexionConnexion
Column in a Zone of Control
Page 1 sur 2 Aller à la page 1, 2  Suivante
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
Auteur Message
Dave_r
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 20 Mai 2021
Messages: 11
MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 09, 2022 1:33 pm    Sujet du message: Column in a Zone of Control Répondre en citant
https://imgur.com/E6TBQkh

[img]https://i.imgur.com/E6TBQkh.jpg[/img]

This situation arose in a game at the weekend. There is an enemy pike element with a Zone of Control on the two friendly cavalry elements. That pike element is in the threat zone of another friendly cavalry.

Behind the cavalry is a friendly LI and an enemy mounted element.

The Friendly cavalry are on the "edge of the world". None of the front edge of the lead cavalry is in the ZoC of the pike.

I had wanted to turn 90 degrees to the left to face the enemy pike, but this was not allowed - due to part of the back element's front edge leaving the ZoC. Page 36 refers.

I wanted to move forward and perfectly align to the pike with the rear element, but this was not allowed either. It was stated this was because part of the front edge was getting further away. I had thought the Involuntary Exit From a ZoC on page 38 would refer, but apparently it doesn't.

I can't evade as there is no room to turn.

Interestingly, the pike would not be allowed to charge the column of Cavalry as it is in the ZoC of the friendly cavalry on their flank.

So what options do the cavalry in column have? I was told they were unable to move. But as the pike are unable to do anything either, this seems to be a bit of a stalemate, which nobody wants
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Longtooth
Signifer


Inscrit le: 14 Oct 2014
Messages: 349
Localisation: Oxford
MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 09, 2022 2:57 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Dave,

The cavalry can turn 90 degrees to face the pike (as you had originally wanted). This is summarised in the most recent FAQ.

Jesse
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4700
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 09, 2022 4:29 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The options depends if cavalry could evade or not. Assuming he can't, you may

pay 1CP in order to mask Pike's ZOC with your LI.

I can't understand how this Li can be flank to flank contact with enney cv...

You can also charge Pikes with cavalry on the flank. A unit taken by flank or rear has no Zoc.

If you have enought point, the best is
charge pikes with cavalry on the flank.

Charge ennemy cavalry with your own at the end of collumn
Provide support in cav vs cav melee with LI

Provide support with last CV in cav vs pike melee.

You just need 3CP. But this give you 2 melees at +3 if cv has no impact.
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Lun Mai 09, 2022 5:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I was the player pinning the cavalry. There were several issues
1. The LI behind the cavalry was mine, not friendly to the cavalry.
2. The cavalry column didn't have room to turn to line because my LI was in the way. I'm not aware of any rule allowing a player to shift enemy units out of the way (except melee conformation).
3. Even if the LI weren't in the way the rear Cv would go off table if turning to a line.
4. The cavalry pinning my flank had already moved to get that position, so couldn't charge until next turn.
5. The cavalry were zoc'd to their flank, so an evade would take them off table (if they could have turned in that direction - which they couldn't).
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Dave_r
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 20 Mai 2021
Messages: 11
MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 10, 2022 9:25 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
[quote="AlanCutner"]I was the player pinning the cavalry. There were several issues
1. The LI behind the cavalry was mine, not friendly to the cavalry.
2. The cavalry column didn't have room to turn to line because my LI was in the way. I'm not aware of any rule allowing a player to shift enemy units out of the way (except melee conformation).
3. Even if the LI weren't in the way the rear Cv would go off table if turning to a line.
4. The cavalry pinning my flank had already moved to get that position, so couldn't charge until next turn.
5. The cavalry were zoc'd to their flank, so an evade would take them off table (if they could have turned in that direction - which they couldn't).[/quote]

I put the picture up from memory, which was clearly faulty.

Point 2: In actual fact, the cavalry could turn into line and extend to the right because of the errata to say you can do so.

Point 5: I don't think the Cavalry were Zoc'd to their flank were they? LI don't exert a ZoC.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 10, 2022 11:04 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The pike we're zoc'ing the cavalry to the flank - not the LI.

I thought your picture about right apart from whose LI they were. And that there were more pikes around.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Theodoric
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 10 Fév 2022
Messages: 12
MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 10, 2022 12:18 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The flanking Cavalry Unit could charge the Pike, this would then nullify the Pike ZOC thus allowing the other Cavalry Units to move freely.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 10, 2022 2:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Theodoric a écrit:
The flanking Cavalry Unit could charge the Pike, this would then nullify the Pike ZOC thus allowing the other Cavalry Units to move freely.

The flanking cavalry unit has just moved to that position, so can't charge until the following turn.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mar Mai 17, 2022 9:51 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Guys, I think the solution is in the diagram "from column to line" P32. However there are several points that need to be considered:-
  1. Ignoring all other units for a second, normally the cavalry would just turn into a line facing the Pikemen. Doing this forces the rearmost cavalry unit to "exit the enemy ZoC involuntarily", permitted on P37.
  2. In your situation, the cavalry wish to turn to their left to face (or possibly to charge) the Pikemen. This manoeuvre would move the second cavalry unit backwards into the enemy LI currently to their rear which is not permitted (I am assuming that the enemy LI are not in contact, which would be illegal). In this event, where there is insufficient space, per P32 the second unit is placed behind - effectively turning the column to the left, assuming that there is sufficient space for the second unit to fit in (the group could advance slightly to ensure that there is space). Note, this also causes the second unit to exit the enemy ZoC involuntarily.
  3. As the enemy LI do not exert a ZoC in the open, they do not cause the cavalry to react so may not be the target of a charge. However, if the LI were a heavier enemy unit, in their current position they would be the most threatening unit to the rearmost cavalry as they are closer than the Pikemen. Here either;
    • the rearmost cavalry simply turn about and charge the enemy unit, conforming on the flank. After that IMO the leading cavalry unit could turn to it's left even though this notionally blocked by the unit currently to it's rear ***.
    • If the leading cavalry moves first, turning left and charging the Pikemen, the second cavalry unit would be displaced during conformation. This might just conceivably cause the unit to 'fall off the edge' involuntarily - which is not covered in the rules (because it is such a rare possibility) - so IMO you should treat it like evading off the table.
  4. Finally, if the LI were friendly, all units may interpenetrate them providing they move through the LI (or at least as far forward as they can). So, providing the cavalry charge the pike in line, then the friendly LI would be displaced to the rear of the cavalry.


*** Note,
IMO the Leading cavalry unit should be allowed to turn to it's left based on the rear left corner of it's base if there is insufficient space for the correct manoeuvre (based on the front left corner). I would not permit the rear unit to do this as there is insufficient space between the leading cavalry and the enemy LI.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 18, 2022 2:06 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:

In your situation, the cavalry wish to turn to their left to face (or possibly to charge) the Pikemen. This manoeuvre would move the second cavalry unit backwards into the enemy LI currently to their rear which is not permitted (I am assuming that the enemy LI are not in contact, which would be illegal). In this event, where there is insufficient space, per P32 the second unit is placed behind - effectively turning the column to the left, assuming that there is sufficient space for the second unit to fit in (the group could advance slightly to ensure that there is space). Note, this also causes the second unit to exit the enemy ZoC involuntarily.

There was insufficent space to form a second rank - the unit would go off table. I see nothing in the rules allowing an advance to create space for that unit. So I don't think this would be an option.

It seems the only options were
1. Do nothing and stay pinned.
2. Charge the pike by wheeling the front Cv, displacing the other Cv.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Mer Mai 18, 2022 9:11 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
You may be right about the position, I was only going by the diagram in which there appeared to be more than 6UD between the pikemen and the edge, while also covering several alternative scenarios. 

However, if there was less than 6UD, displacing the rear unit would leave it overhanging the edge - which IMO should be treated as ‘evading off the table’ as I suggested earlier.
Equally, if there was less than 6UD between the left flank of the cavalry column and the edge, the cavalry could turn left into ‘line’, with the rear unit temporarily overhanging the edge before the group advances towards or into contact with the pikemen, bringing the rear unit back fully onto the table. 
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 19, 2022 7:02 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Units may not voluntarily leave the table ecept as an evade. I don't see why the consequence of a quarter turn should be treated as an evade, or why a 'temporary' exit of table would be considered allowable. Where are the exceptions in the rules? Such an exception would have other consequences on unit movement close to able edge.

Ofcourse the rear Cv could choose to evade. Theres nothing exerting a ZOC on their evade path.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
Messages: 489
Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 19, 2022 8:02 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I see that turning from column to line is explicitly considered as an involuntary exit from a ZoC in the rules. Surely it would be consistent to also consider it involuntary when looking at an exit from the table Smile
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 19, 2022 9:48 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
I see that turning from column to line is explicitly considered as an involuntary exit from a ZoC in the rules. Surely it would be consistent to also consider it involuntary when looking at an exit from the table Smile

It might be something to consider for V5. But I just don't see it existing in V4. Fundamentally this is a case of a player putting troops in a bad position and trying to find a new rules interpretation to get a way out.
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Jeu Mai 19, 2022 10:52 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I agree that this situation is not covered in the rules, after all it is an "edge case" in every sense and thus very rare, which is why I only suggested the solutions earlier. We cannot expect the author to re-write the rules to cover every last obscure situation like this. Which leaves the question; How should such situations be resolved !?

IMO a preamble from another ruleset covers this quite nicely;
Citation:
Tabletop wargaming is an imprecise science and can often generate rules questions. The sheer number of variables thrown up by the rules, army lists and varied tabletop terrain pretty much guarantees that at some point during any game you and your opponent will have a discussion about how exactly to deal with a situation that has occurred, or you will find that you play the game using slightly different methods or conventions. Usually, you will be able to overcome these differences by simply chatting about them with your opponent, but occasionally you will find that you each feel a rule or situation should be interpreted in a diametrically opposed way. Such a situation can lead to a very heated debate that might spoil your enjoyment of the game, and because of this, when these situations occur try not to argue about the rules, and instead simply smile and say “Okay, let’s play it your way!†Trust me, you’ll find that this method of play is much more relaxing and fun than bickering about rules, and you may find that you actually prefer your opponent’s method to your own. It’s also the mature approach, which when all is said and done is designed for experienced wargamers rather than experienced rules lawyers. ‘Nuff said, I hope!
Revenir en haut de page
Voir le profil de l'utilisateur Envoyer un message privé
  
 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
Page 1 sur 2 Aller à la page 1, 2  Suivante
Poster un nouveau sujet   Répondre au sujet Toutes les heures sont au format GMT

 
Sauter vers:  
Vous ne pouvez pas poster de nouveaux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas répondre aux sujets dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas éditer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas supprimer vos messages dans ce forum
Vous ne pouvez pas voter dans les sondages de ce forum