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Charge reach and supportsconforming
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules question V4
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 06, 2021 11:20 pm    Sujet du message: Charge reach and supportsconforming Répondre en citant
P 42 defines charge reach including (among other factors) the closest point point measure.

The penultimate bullet on p 42 says, “…However only those units of a group that stater within charge range will be able to conform with the enemy (see p 50).†(I love it when I get the chance to use the word penultimate!)

However, p 50, 9th bullet says , “If the conforming unit is part of a group, other units in a group may also be moved up to one UD to remain aligned as a group.â€

Imagine a group charging the enemy where one element of that group (unit #1) is in range but the next unit (unit #2) is not in range but after the charge move a move of up to one extra UD would result it in being in position to provide support to unit #1. If this group charges then unit #1 can charge the enemy and conform, but unit #2 does conform into the Simple Support position or not, and hence does it provide provide support to unit #1 or not?

Example with Unit1 and 2 facing down, Enemy facing up and to the left.

Unit2Unit1…………y
…………………….em
………………..En
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 07, 2021 12:25 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Your example looks like Linear B having passed through a first generation of Netscape translate.
IE I am missing your precise point.

Units that are in support are not in melee and do not get first round charge modifiers.

So if I get what you are asking....which i may not.

A charger cannot conform into a position where it is melee and gets first round modifiers if it did not start in range.

You can conform as part of charge, where the group's end position shifts as long as it does not violate the above.
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KevinD
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MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 07, 2021 3:37 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
Your example looks like Linear B having passed through a first generation of Netscape translate.
IE I am missing your precise point.

Units that are in support are not in melee and do not get first round charge modifiers.

So if I get what you are asking....which i may not.

A charger cannot conform into a position where it is melee and gets first round modifiers if it did not start in range.

You can conform as part of charge, where the group's end position shifts as long as it does not violate the above.


Sorry, that’s not what I meant.

There’s a group that wants to charge the enemy. Let’s call the units that want to charge units 1 &2 and suppose they MI in Open, so they have a 3 UD move.

Unit 1 is just under 3 UD away from the enemy so can charge the enemy and get into contact using its 3 UD allowance, and then wiggle/slide during its conforming to get into proper contact.

Unfortunately the angle between the line created by unit 1-unit2’s joint front and the nearest point of the enemy is such that the closest point on unit 2 is beyond 3 UD from the enemy. Can unit 1 “drag†unit 2 along in its confirmation so that unit can provide support to unit in the coming melee even if unit 2 ends up contacting (for simple support) the enemy at a point more than 3 UD from where it started? Does this violation of the penultimate bullet on page 42 prevent it from conforming to provide support when another unit in its group is conforming to attack the enemy?
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 07, 2021 9:43 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Much depends on the position and angle of advance relative to the target. The guiding principle here is that no unit may advance more than its movement allowance. Once this is reached, the unit may only conform, first by sliding and then wheeling up to 1UD. 
As the angle between the two lines of units increases, fewer attacking units will be able to get into contact within their movement allowance or by the subsequent conformation. 

Does that help ??
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Za Otlichiye
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MessagePosté le: Dim Nov 07, 2021 8:22 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I've looked at this a bit and here are my thoughts. Simple scenario with 3 units of Cv, left, center, and right, charging an enemy in front of them at an angle.
The center unit will contact the front edge of the enemy, and let's say the left unit contacts the flank or the front flank corner. These will obviously conform - center unit face to face with the enemy and the left unit in support on the left.
But the right unit is going to whiff and just keep going. But we know it should end up in support on the right. So how does this happen? I think if it's "shoulder to shoulder" with the center unit at contact - that is to say it's not a Kn unit with a lower MA or anything - then it gets to conform as support, without needing to measure anything out. This seems to be the spirit of what is being shown in the diagrams on page 50 (which otherwise seem pretty dodgy). Now perhaps the "penultimate" bullet page 42 places a restriction on this, saying that the left unit must be within charge distance directly from the starting alignment, even though its charge path will not be direct.
The 1 UD of free adjustment only applies to keeping the group together. If there is a fourth unit on the far right, you might want to bring it adjacent or behind the third unit of the right. Not sure how fussy you need to be about the actual measurement. Of course, I'm not sure that anyone bothers charging a single enemy with 4 Cv so maybe it's not important, except as an exploration of principles.
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Hazelbark
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MessagePosté le: Lun Nov 08, 2021 6:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
KevinD a écrit:


There’s a group that wants to charge the enemy. Let’s call the units that want to charge units 1 &2 and suppose they MI in Open, so they have a 3 UD move.

Unit 1 is just under 3 UD away from the enemy so can charge the enemy and get into contact using its 3 UD allowance, and then wiggle/slide during its conforming to get into proper contact.

Unfortunately the angle between the line created by unit 1-unit2’s joint front and the nearest point of the enemy is such that the closest point on unit 2 is beyond 3 UD from the enemy. Can unit 1 “drag†unit 2 along in its confirmation so that unit can provide support to unit in the coming melee even if unit 2 ends up contacting (for simple support) the enemy at a point more than 3 UD from where it started? Does this violation of the penultimate bullet on page 42 prevent it from conforming to provide support when another unit in its group is conforming to attack the enemy?


No it does not violate the bullet and may conform.
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Za Otlichiye
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MessagePosté le: Sam Nov 13, 2021 2:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Does it start in charge range? No.
May it conform to the enemy? No.
That may not be how people play it, I can't say, but obviously it does violate the bullet.
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