Art De La Guerre

[vexillia]

New blog post:

In 2018 and 2020 I used the Art de la Guerre (ADLG) results database to probe the perennial question of super armies. My starting definition of a super army was an army that, in the hands of almost anyone, will deliver an above average number of victories.

In ADLG games the number of variables involved in determining the outcome is huge; player skill, list choices, terrain deployment etc etc. So to get to the influence of the army list alone I looked at a very large number of games to avoid the perils associated with small data sets.



Then last week I received an email from Mike Guth politely disagreeing with my conclusion and he sited the success of Yuan Chinese armies at the World Championships from 2016 to 2019.

This piqued my interest. Is there something special about the Yuan Chinese in a two list competition like the World Championship? I began to dig.

https://blog.vexillia.me.uk/2021/01/yuan-chinese-adlg-super-army.html
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Martin Stephenson

[Mars]

Link gives me an 'Error 400'.

[vexillia]

Link corrected.
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Martin Stephenson

[lionelrus]

Yes , yuan chinese is a very good army, but very used in UK. It has weekness well knew in France, and it's easy to counter it.
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain.

[vexillia]

Tell us more about the counter measures.
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Martin Stephenson

[lionelrus]

Yuan chinese are usualy made with 2 cv bow commands and 1 elephant+MI command
You may take a anti-elephant command, but it's a false good idea.

In fact, the best way is repeling the cv wings and take mi on the flanc/rear.

Or you can allway roll 6.
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain.

[Soranon]

(sorry for my english)

I dont agree with you, Lionel.

Yuan Chinese army list are usualy composed like this :

- A corps d’armee with Impact/Bow Heavy Cavalry (sometimes a small one with only 4 units and only one light horse, sometimes the 4 Guards allowed by the list)
- A corps d’armee with the elephant et some MI/ Mixted MI (sometimes you can found 2 HC impact bow with them if the small corps option is retained)
- A Javanese allied corps with 2 elephants and 3 MI impetuous

The strenght of this list is that it’s a very adaptative one. Each of the previous corps can be the nemesis of some other opponent corps. It’s a very agressive list with a very good command.

If you analyse this army list just for a classic tournament, you can see some weakness, especially against Horse archers army list. If your opponent play a lot of horses archer or play Ghaznévide, you’ll have to figth against more HC bow than you can have (and in case of Ghaznévide with a better elephant corps, the famous 3 elite elephant with 2 dailamis).

But this analysis is wrong in case of a 2 lists tournament. What is very strong with Yuan list is that you can play a second list in witch you choose Koryo Corean allies instead of Javanese allies. A second list composed usualy like this :

- A corps d’armee with Impact/Bow Heavy Cavalry (sometimes a small one with only 4 units and only one light horse, sometimes the 4 Guards allowed by the list)
- A corps d’armee with the elephant et some MI/ Mixted MI (sometimes you can found 3 HC impact bow with them if the small corps option is retained)
- 1 or 2 HC impact with 3-4 mixted heavy lancers/bow and 2 HI 2HW (sometime 5-6 mixted)

This list give you a very good army list against shooting armies and mounted army and make Yuan list a wonderfull jack of all trade army list.

All this doesn’t mean that Yuan army is easy to play. I think it’s a difficult army list, but in a good player’s hand, it’s devastating.

[Commodore]

[lionelrus]

[lionelrus]

Nice analysed by commodore, but it's a way to composing a list against yuan.
What avbout all else armies,?
_________________
"Quand on a pas de technique, faut y aller à la zob"
Perceval à Yvain et Gauvain.

[Commodore]

[Black Prince]

Why are the Yuan Chinese difficult to use?

[Soranon]

Mirror match could be complicated... For exemple, Ghaznevid or Delhi Sultanate have Elite elephants (and elephant corps that are more powerfull)

Horse archers armies like Byzantines armies are difficult toplay against too

A simple army list like Viking like the one below can be very complicated to demoralise (and to figth with Javanese Allie)

Ordinary Gen included
3 HI 2HCW armor élite
3 HI swordmen
2 LI

Ordinary Gen included
3 HI 2HCW armor élite
3 HI swordmen
2 LI

Ordinary Allie Gen included
2 HI 2HCW armor élite
4 Heavy lancer
2 LI


Spannish medeval list that can play elite LI Jls, MI impact elite, LMI LB elite and/or javeliners. Even a single javeliner in tougth and resilient list (War of the rose, for exemple) can be annoying for the Yuan army list.

In fact, there's a lot of lists that can counter YUAN. I think it depend more of the players level.