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Entering difficult terrain
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Dickstick
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Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 28, 2020 2:19 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thanks Michael.
That's what I have been using all along.
If I'm lining the edge of a wood and attacked we are fighting in the wood.
And if I'm lining the edge of open terrain and l'm attacked we are fighting in the open.

But I wait for Hazelbark, Ramses or Alan to reference this "ruling " that people standing in the open can be dragged into terrain. (Conforming is a different thing)
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 28, 2020 3:00 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Citation:
If I'm lining the edge of a wood and attacked we are fighting in the wood.
And if I'm lining the edge of open terrain and l'm attacked we are fighting in the open.


I can appreciate and sympathise thats how you would like it to work. However its not what the rule says.

Citation:
If a melee occurs just on the edge of a terrain, both units are considered to be in the terrain.


The question of whether 'terrain' only applies to rough/difficult stuff, or whether 'open' counts as terrain has also been discussed - see http://www.artdelaguerre.fr/adlg/v3/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7387. The relevant part (translated) is
Citation:
If a unit is on difficult or rough terrain and is fighting to leave it, the position is obvious even if part of the unit is exposed; the unit obtains a penalty under these circumstances. If the unit is in clear terrain but touches the edge of difficult or rough terrain, El Kreator has decreed that it will not be considered to be in clear terrain.


Seems very black and white. No variation based on who makes the charge/conform. If the combat is on the edge of terrain both units count as in it. So if a units charge or pursuit is stopped by terrain it is at the edge, and therefore at risk.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 28, 2020 3:56 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Thank you Alan.

So how do we get to know about what the french decide in future?
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AlanCutner
Tribun


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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 28, 2020 4:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I'm fairly sure I remember this being stated on the English forum, but my admittedly very quick and basic search didn't find it. In practise I find there are very few rulings kept just to the French forum.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Mar Jan 28, 2020 7:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Thanks Michael.
That's what I have been using all along.
If I'm lining the edge of a wood and attacked we are fighting in the wood.
And if I'm lining the edge of open terrain and l'm attacked we are fighting in the open.

But I wait for Hazelbark, Ramses or Alan to reference this "ruling " that people standing in the open can be dragged into terrain. (Conforming is a different thing)


So I am a tad confused.

We agree on lining the edge of a wood = fighting in wood.

lining the edge of open terrain is what I am not tracking.
1) is any part of anyone's base in terrain? If so that unit may have in terrain modifiers.
2) if you are entirely in the open and while close to terrain have specifically said, I am sufficiently away from this terrain piece to not be lining the edge (2mm for example), then you are in the open.
3) if you are entirely in clear, and butt up against the edge of terrain, then I think that means you are on the edge, but not in. As I write this I think you are asking the definition to be see point 3A.
3A) A unit can only line the edge of terrain, from within terrain
3B) I believe the definition is agnostic as to where the unit is. If you have moved to the actual edge of terrain then you are in for melee purposes. You can be forced to move to the edge for a variety of reasons...conforming, pursuit, impetuous.

In some ways 3A would simplify a lot. essentially it would mean you never had a risk unless you moved inside.
It would also mean there is less risk of bad terrain effects to units that don't choose to enter.

If this is what you are saying, I now understand it. I could even imagine a clarification supporting your position. But I believe that is not supported by p57. Therefore I believe 3B is the definition.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 29, 2020 8:33 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There you have it .
3a is the way I play it.
But 3b is sited as the way to go.

Unfortunately it can be read that two units fighting in the open both lining the edge of terrain will be moving in the open but fighting in the terrain.

That becomes a Charlie brown moment "good grief"
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 29, 2020 1:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I understand the dilemma, but this is really a “non-issueâ€, except in one respect.

There is no such thing as “open terrainâ€, it does not exist in the list of terrain elements defined in the Setting Up section. Consequently a unit cannot be lined up on the edge of ‘open terrain’. P57 states that a melee occurring on the edge of the terrain is considered to be in the terrain (ie taking place on one of the defined terrain elements) with the associated penalties. 

The issue is that this definition is unclear. The unstated assumption seems to be that this applies to units fighting when aligned with the edge of the terrain, ie whose front edges are on either side of the edge and thus fighting across the edge.
  • In the conforming and terrain diagram, unit B might touch the edge of the terrain. Yet the terrain penalties do not apply.
  • It is unclear if the penalties should apply where both units are both in the open while their flanks are both touching the edge of the terrain, though this seems nonsensical as Dickstick suggests. However, a close reading of the rule suggest that this only applies where (at least) one unit is partially in the terrain.
It is to be hoped that this definition will be cleared up  in V4, 
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 29, 2020 8:35 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
There you have it .


Now I will go off to decipher something simple like the rap version of Hittite Linear B.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 29, 2020 10:49 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses
Does your rulebook still have page 63?

Mine does and under types of terrain the first of four terrains is open.

Open doesn't appear under setting up because the table started as open terrain. The elephant in the room.

Some open terrain is raised up on a gentle hill.

Still say there is no such thing as open terrain?

Where a hill and a wood butt up to each other a mêlée on the mutual edge we now have both units up the hill and in the wood
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 29, 2020 11:39 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ahh, we may have a difference of understanding there Smile

P63 describes the types of terrain, not the terrain elements that are placed, a small but significant difference.
While the terrain elements are defined on PP64-65 (including hills which may be open or another terrain type) AFAIK, the 'table' is not defined as a terrain element . . .

You do raise an interesting question about fighting across two terrain elements, another question that possibly needs to be considered in V4. However, I would suggest that the same principles would be applied; so IMO units in such a situation would be both considered to be fighting in the 'worst' terrain.
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Dickstick
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Jan 30, 2020 8:45 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
We do have a difference in understanding.

Ramses II a écrit:
I understand the dilemma, but this is really a “non-issueâ€, except in one respect.

There is no such thing as “open terrainâ€, it does not exist in the list of terrain elements defined in the Setting Up section.  


I failed to spot the goal posts had been moved with the addition of 'elements '

You clearly said there is no such thing as open terrain.
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Black Prince
Prétorien


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MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 31, 2020 7:35 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Speaking of V4 any idea when it will be released?
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Mike Bennett
Centurion


Inscrit le: 11 Nov 2017
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Localisation: Carnforth, Lancashire, UK
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 31, 2020 8:01 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The rules define non man made terrain (most difficult except towns) as being irregular. Can the straight edged of a unit line the non straight edge of a piece of terrain?

Specifically in this case the unit outside would stop as soon as any part of its edge touched the terrain, logically the part projecting most forward. The unit inside could then not be in contact, since it would need to be sufficiently far back that it’s entire 40mm front edge was within the terrain?
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madaxeman
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 31, 2020 11:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
The rules define non man made terrain (most difficult except towns) as being irregular. Can the straight edged of a unit line the non straight edge of a piece of terrain?

Specifically in this case the unit outside would stop as soon as any part of its edge touched the terrain, logically the part projecting most forward. The unit inside could then not be in contact, since it would need to be sufficiently far back that it’s entire 40mm front edge was within the terrain?


I knew there was a reason I couldn't recall a time that this situation had ever come up in any game I'd ever played !
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