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Entering difficult terrain
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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Willkilla
Frondeur


Inscrit le: 16 Oct 2019
Messages: 5
MessagePosté le: Mer Jan 22, 2020 11:09 pm    Sujet du message: Entering difficult terrain Répondre en citant
Hello, I know this is probably a silly question.

When a unit enters terrain even partially, it must move at the terrain speed. What I'm wondering is if I have impetuous HI that are in open and just over 1UD away from difficult terrain, if they use their move, they would reach the terrain and suddenly run out of movement because of the -1UD penalty. I would want to move them at their maximum speed for the sake of CP, but a 1UD move would still leave them in the open having never reached the difficult terrain. Is this correct? Or would they be able to reach the terrain and stop on the edge?

Also, what happens if both players tie for initiative? Is it a reroll?

Thank you!
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Zoltan
Centurion


Inscrit le: 18 Jan 2015
Messages: 443
Localisation: Wellington, New Zealand
MessagePosté le: Jeu Jan 23, 2020 6:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The widespread convention on tied initiative dice rolls is to simply re-roll.

Impetuous troops attempting to move from open into difficult terrain is tricky; the example under Movement Distances on p.27 is the reverse of your example (from wood into open). But the principles in the rules are clear:
1. when moving through mixed terrain, max move is that of the slowest terrain type
2. impetuous moving less than their max move pay an extra CP
3. you can't move further than your max move for the terrain type

So I guess that means in your example:
- impetuous HI starting in the open just over 1 UD from the wood edge can NOT enter the wood
- if they want to enter the wood they must first pay 2CP to move short in the open up to the wood's edge
- next move they can pay 1 CP and move 1UD into the wood

Not really a very efficient use of impetuous HI. Confused
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lionelrus
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 21 Mar 2009
Messages: 4700
Localisation: paris
MessagePosté le: Jeu Jan 23, 2020 7:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
The widespread convention on tied initiative dice rolls is to simply re-roll.

Impetuous troops attempting to move from open into difficult terrain is tricky; the example under Movement Distances on p.27 is the reverse of your example (from wood into open). But the principles in the rules are clear:
1. when moving through mixed terrain, max move is that of the slowest terrain type
2. impetuous moving less than their max move pay an extra CP
3. you can't move further than your max move for the terrain type

So I guess that means in your example:
- impetuous HI starting in the open just over 1 UD from the wood edge can NOT enter the wood
- if they want to enter the wood they must first pay 2CP to move short in the open up to the wood's edge
- next move they can pay 1 CP and move 1UD into the wood

Not really a very efficient use of impetuous HI. Confused


the second bullet is wrong as they had move the maximum.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
Messages: 1525
MessagePosté le: Jeu Jan 23, 2020 8:15 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I feel like this was answered somewhere before.

My view is the HI would move to the edge of the terrain and then stop. i.e. 1.5 UD.
This would cost 1 CP.
Reason:
The unit was moved its full distance. Its full move does not allow it to enter terrain.

NOTE:
An enemy in the terrain could attack the HI ad the HI would fight as if in terrain, since being on the edge counts as in.

That is how I would rule on the fly, pending trying to find the guidance.

I can imagine the DT ruling otherwise.
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 24, 2020 1:04 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Agreed on all points. 
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 24, 2020 7:16 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hazelbark a écrit:
I feel like this was answered somewhere before.

My view is the HI would move to the edge of the terrain and then stop. i.e. 1.5 UD.
This would cost 1 CP.
Reason:
The unit was moved its full distance. Its full move does not allow it to enter terrain.

NOTE:
An enemy in the terrain could attack the HI ad the HI would fight as if in terrain, since being on the edge counts as in.

That is how I would rule on the fly, pending trying to find the guidance.

I can imagine the DT ruling otherwise.


I may be dumb but not that dumb to accept the ruling under NOTE. The unit is not fast enough to get into the wood . So it cannot be claimed later to be in. Either it's in or it's not. It outside fullstop.
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
Messages: 706
Localisation: Scotland
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 24, 2020 9:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Citation:
I may be dumb but not that dumb to accept the ruling under NOTE. The unit is not fast enough to get into the wood . So it cannot be claimed later to be in. Either it's in or it's not. It outside fullstop.


This has been discussed previously, and IIRC a clear ruling was made that a unit on the edge of terrain, fighting something in the terrain, counts as fighting in it.
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 24, 2020 10:12 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Great for something that is on the edge of terrain as it is in it .
But to claim something that has not entered the terrain is somehow in it is stupid.
The edge is always part of the terrain.
This unit doesn't enter the edge.
So it's not in it.
To claim the edge is both in and out of the terrain is a fools errand. It leads to nonsense.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 12 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Sam Jan 25, 2020 4:01 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Dickstick a écrit:
Great for something that is on the edge of terrain as it is in it .
But to claim something that has not entered the terrain is somehow in it is stupid.
The edge is always part of the terrain.
This unit doesn't enter the edge.
So it's not in it.
To claim the edge is both in and out of the terrain is a fools errand. It leads to nonsense.


I take your point. Leaving aside the table pounding.
Here i think is the distinction in game terms.
Being on the edge constitutes being in for combat purposes, but not movement purposes.
Being in the terrain constitutes being in for combat and movement purposes.

Generally i find every rule set has to define the meaning of on the edge of terrain. However the rule decides their will be circumstances of disagreement because of how we approach the specific case.
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
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MessagePosté le: Sam Jan 25, 2020 7:30 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There is no logic in this dual definition of edge.

Who decided there needs to be this contradiction?
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AlanCutner
Tribun


Inscrit le: 03 Nov 2014
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MessagePosté le: Sam Jan 25, 2020 1:53 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
There is clear logic. At the point of contact/combat how can one side be fighting in terrain and the other not? Two men fighting each other are in the same terrain. There is no force barrier stopping one from taking a step over that edge. This ruling covers that perfectly adequately.
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Dickstick
Légat


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2016
Messages: 680
Localisation: West Bromwich
MessagePosté le: Sam Jan 25, 2020 5:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
As the unit never moved into the wood the charging unit will have to charge out of the wood. The fight is in the open.
You have them charging out, dragging their opponents into the wood and fighting them in the wood.
How close does the unit need to be to be eligible for dragging into the wood? 1mm, 5mm or what?
How wide is this fantasy land called "Edge " that is neither wood nor open ground?

This is a muggers charter.

Logic? My a....
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Ramses II
Magister Militum


Inscrit le: 17 Juil 2015
Messages: 1160
Localisation: London
MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 26, 2020 12:46 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
While we may sympathise with this debate, the original question asked about movement restrictions. To summarise, if the unit doesn’t have sufficient movement capacity to enter the terrain it must stop before entering it.

The player may choose to stop the unit short of the terrain or to move the unit up to the edge of the terrain, accepting the in-game choices that result from either position. The rules clearly state that a unit which is touching terrain when fighting, is considered to be in the terrain.

If everyone is clear on this ruling at the outset (irrespective of how ‘realistic’ or ‘logical’ this is), there is no problem. Let’s move on shall we. 
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Dickstick
Légat


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MessagePosté le: Dim Jan 26, 2020 9:17 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Where is this ruling to be seen?
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MKennedy
Javelinier


Inscrit le: 23 Oct 2017
Messages: 16
Localisation: Maryland
MessagePosté le: Lun Jan 27, 2020 2:17 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Citation:
Where is this ruling to be seen?


Page 57, under Terrain modifiers, 1st paragraph, last sentence: "If a melee occurs just on the edge of a terrain, both units are considered to be in the terrain."

Michael
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