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Continuing a charge
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Déc 19, 2019 11:02 pm    Sujet du message: Continuing a charge Répondre en citant
Consider group A opposite but offset against an opposing group. The first group charges resulting in its left hand unit partially contacting the end unit of the enemy group. Whats the order of what happens next?

Continuing a Charge (P36) states "When one or more units of a charging group contact the enemy, the other units of the group who have not contacted an enemy can continue their charge up to their maximum movement." So, in this case any and all units of group A apart from the one contacting enemy can continue moving forward.

But

Conforming (P52) states "After initial contact is made,the player continues the movement :First by sliding the unit or group by up to 1 UD in order to line up corner to corner with the enemy", etc, etc. So does the group conform at first contact, bringing another unit of group A into corner contact with the enemy, stopping it from continuing its charge. Other units then continue their charge.
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fdunadan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 20, 2019 8:05 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That's both Very Happy
First, you continue the charge (optionnal except for impetuous units). Therefor, others units than those that made first contact can contact the ennemy, breaking their group.
Then, you conform the unit in contact with an ennemy, so that you achieve frontal contact corner to corner. Units in support can conform as to bring a legal support.

in the case where you have 2 lines one behind the other but with a shif, where A are charging B and Ct:

AAAAAA

B
___C

after first contact, A can stop his charge:

AAAAAA
B
___C
only B fight, A having a support

if A choose to continue, then
AA
B_AAAA
__C

or even
A
BAAAAA
__C

there is fight on B and C
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 20, 2019 10:03 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So my understanding is where group A-D charges group X-Y and first contact is

XXYY
.....AABBCCDD

For non impetuous troops there are three main options
1. Halt the charge on contact for unit A only and continue charge for the rest past group X-Y. This results in A conforming to and fighting Y without any overlap support.

..........BBCCDD
XXYY
...AA

2. As 1, but though unit B charges on, it stops in a position on the flank of Y, giving something like

............CCDD
XXYY..BB
...AA

3. Halt the charge on contact for units A and B only and continue charge for the rest past group X-Y. This results in A and B conforming to Y and A fighting Y with overlap support from B.

............CCDD
XXYY
...AABB

For impetuous troops only option 1 is available. So the only way impetuous troops can get the overlap support on unit Y would be if the charge is fully aligned to group XY, otherwise unit B never makes even corner contact.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 20, 2019 6:59 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I think the sequence is:

1. Start charge move
2. initial contact is made
3. Conform
4. Continue charge move

P52 makes clear that any conforming occurs once initial contact has been made.

P53 makes clear that the whole group can opt to conform once initial contact has been made by the first unit. Thus, a 1 UD group conformation slide will result in the unit making initial contact being perfectly aligned with the target and a second unit from the charging group being in front corner to corner contact with the target.

Next is any decision to continue the charge. I can't find anything that specifically says units that have already conformed into a support position (i.e. front corner to corner contact) are exempt from the continuing a charge rules. So I guess impetuous units must continue the charge even if this means they move past a position that would allow them to provide support to their friend who has already conformed to the enemy's front. Some charge continuers may fortuitously end up in a support position by sliding along the enemy's flank. I guess non-impetuous units can opt to continue the charge past the enemy's front edge and slide along the enemy's flank far enough to remain in a support position (and be ready to charge the enemy's flank in their next move).

There could also be situations where parts of an impetuous group (not making contact with the enemy initially charged) become subject to the variable move rules.

At the time of charge declaration one needs to consider whether or not to start the charge with a group slide (to remove the need for any conformation on first contact) with due regard to where any charge continuers may end up.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 20, 2019 7:42 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
I think the sequence is:
P52 makes clear that any conforming occurs once initial contact has been made.


Where does it say this? This is at the root of my query.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 20, 2019 9:20 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
Zoltan a écrit:
I think the sequence is:
P52 makes clear that any conforming occurs once initial contact has been made.


Where does it say this? This is at the root of my query.


P.52 Conforming, official amendments which explain the conforming procedure (my emphasis):

"After initial contact is made, the player continues movement:
- first by sliding the unit or group by up to 1 UD in order to line up corner to corner with the enemy
- In the case of frontal contact, the alignment is made corner to the front corner of the most menacing enemy at the moment of entry into a Zone of Control
- etc etc"
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 20, 2019 9:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I'd like to agree with you. But its not 100% clear that that comes before continuing a charge. Its simply laying out the sequence for the conformation process.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Ven Déc 20, 2019 10:52 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
OK, rethinking this then.

1. Conforming is merely a "housekeeping" thing to simplify the resolution of melee (P52);

2. Charging stands alone and everything to do with charging should first be resolved before any housekeeping is done;

3. Where a group charges and only (say) one of the group contacts an enemy, you must resolve any continuing charge requirements BEFORE any housekeeping (conforming to simplify melee resolution);

4. Where the charging group starts NOT perfectly lined up with the target, unless the group slides to align with the target at the start of the charge it is likely that any units continuing the charge will break up the group and end in a position where none of them can provide support to the charger that first made contact. Alternatively, a wheel at the start of the charge enabling two chargers to contact the enemy would allow a subsequent conformation resulting in one supporting unit.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Sam Déc 21, 2019 9:07 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
That sounds logical. But it looks like we don't know for certain, and I could imagine the argument if I tried telling a tournament opponent his impetuous troops couldn't fully conform for a support. If theres a member of the TB reading this it would be useful for your view.
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Sam Déc 21, 2019 7:41 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Hi Alan. I’ve corresponded separately with Dan H (USA) and Hubert B (FR) on this and they confirm that playing practice is as follows:

Imagine a line of 6 impetuous HI declaring a group charge where only the left most HI contacts an enemy. The contacting HI and the next HI (capable of providing support) immediately conform to the target. The four remaining impetuous HI continue their charge to max move distance, breaking up the group. So in this sense conforming (by those who can) overrides any obligation/choice to continue a charge. 
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Sam Déc 21, 2019 8:54 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Having said that, the FAQ on page 10 regarding the general charge mechanism appears to say that any continuing charges occur after first contact and before any conforming. So impetuous units may be forced to continue their charge past a potential support position (which probably feels right).
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SteveR
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MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 22, 2019 2:43 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
I earlier posted a question about impetuous troops who could not complete a conformation due to non-displacable units being present, and the consensus at that time was that impetuous troops in a support position, even if not in contact, did not need to leave that position to complete their charge move.

That feels right to me.
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AlanCutner
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MessagePosté le: Dim Déc 22, 2019 4:10 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
So the ruling is effectively "conform before continuing charge". I assume

1. The notional 'supporting unit' still counts as a support even if the unit in contact cannot conform.

2. Units continuing their charge do not join the conforming move. To do so could lead to units sliding upto 2UD before contacting enemy (1UD at start of charge, another UD fr the conform).

Happy with this. Just wanted a definitive answer.
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Hazelbark
Magister Militum


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MessagePosté le: Ven Jan 03, 2020 1:52 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
AlanCutner a écrit:
So the ruling is effectively "conform before continuing charge". I assume

1. The notional 'supporting unit' still counts as a support even if the unit in contact cannot conform.

2. Units continuing their charge do not join the conforming move. To do so could lead to units sliding upto 2UD before contacting enemy (1UD at start of charge, another UD fr the conform).

Happy with this. Just wanted a definitive answer.


Yes.
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