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Elephant+foot group charge
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 Art De La Guerre Index du Forum > Rules questions V3
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 19, 2019 8:58 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
I understand what you are saying, that the group of elephant and LI have a minimum charge of 2UD, so by charging the enemy which evades would uncover a target that the LI could not contact. However the FAQ p11 on Evade adjusted movement specifically prohibits this group charge, because this would put the LI into an illegal contact within it’s minimum charge distance. 

In your example there are three options
  • the LI may charge the enemy LI. If that evades, the LI must move 1UD towards the enemy HI.  
  • the elephant may charge both the enemy LI and HI. If the enemy LI evade, the elephant moves into contact with the HI (as a declared target)
  • the elephant may charge only the enemy LI. If that evades, the elephant must move 2UD towards the enemy HI, but may not contact it since that was not a target.

No no no.

Firstly, the elephant confuses things here so let's replace it with MSwd.

Now we have a situation where both the LI and the MI can stop after 1UD.

There is a fourth option:
  • the LI and MI charge the LI as a group

The enemy LI evade revealing a new target (paragraph 4 page 40) and the charging LI must stop because they can't charge HI, but the MI may "continue their charge" as stated explicitly(!) in paragraph 6 page 40.

If you really can't see that then maybe get a ruling from the DT.
Ramses II a écrit:
That said, using an extra CP grants extra options . . .

Slightly missing the point.
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Dernière édition par daveallen le Lun Aoû 19, 2019 1:40 pm; édité 1 fois
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 19, 2019 9:12 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Mike Bennett a écrit:
One Hubert used on me where part of a group stopped is a mixed chanrge of heavies and lights against my similairly screened heavies. Heavies and LI screen attached at the front charge similiar enemy. Enemy lights evaded, charging screen stopped short of contact on my heavies (not allowed), and heavies behind carried on through into my heavies.

Just to pick this up again Mike.

Hubert should have rolled the dice for the variable move of the HI as all the targets of the original charge had evaded. (page 40, para 1)
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Zoltan
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 19, 2019 10:33 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
@Dave - in the case of MI with an attached LI screen, what’s the point of charging as a group if the LI is going to stop 1UD short of enemy MI and the group’s MI interpenetrate its LI to contact the enemy MI?

Doesn’t this leave the LI in the rout path of its friends (if things go bad in melee) or make them unavailable to move to a support position if pips and location allow?

I’m trying to understand the rationale behind Hubert’s tactic against Mike.
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madaxeman
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 19, 2019 12:31 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Does weird stuff like this always 9and only) happen in games between the four of you - because I'm not sure any of these situations have ever happened to anyone else who plays the game Exclamation

Laughing Laughing
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 19, 2019 1:33 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Zoltan a écrit:
@Dave - in the case of MI with an attached LI screen, what’s the point of charging as a group if the LI is going to stop 1UD short of enemy MI and the group’s MI interpenetrate its LI to contact the enemy MI?

Doesn’t this leave the LI in the rout path of its friends (if things go bad in melee) or make them unavailable to move to a support position if pips and location allow?

I’m trying to understand the rationale behind Hubert’s tactic against Mike.

It's not as bizarre as you might think.

If the LI are between half and 1UD apart then the charge as a group is spontaneous, whereas charging with the MI (or Ele from the original example) alone costs a Command Point.

Though if you want to know why Hubert charged as a group you should ask him. Laughing
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Lun Aoû 19, 2019 1:37 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
madaxeman a écrit:
Does weird stuff like this always 9and only) happen in games between the four of you - because I'm not sure any of these situations have ever happened to anyone else who plays the game Exclamation

Laughing Laughing

Don't think it's happened often in my games, but it's definitely a tactic I've seen used by some of the better players. Twisted Evil
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mar Aoû 20, 2019 10:55 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:

No no no.
Firstly, the elephant confuses things here so let's replace it with MSwd.
Now we have a situation where both the LI and the MI can stop after 1UD.
There is a fourth option:
  • the LI and MI charge the LI as a group

The enemy LI evade revealing a new target (paragraph 4 page 40) and the charging LI must stop because they can't charge HI, but the MI may "continue their charge" as stated explicitly(!) in paragraph 6 page 40.
If you really can't see that then maybe get a ruling from the DT.

So, let me try to understand what you are suggesting. In the following diagram, moving from left to right:-


MI,LI <1.5UD> li,hi


Where the group MI & LI wish to make a charge on the enemy li and hi. What are their options?

You are suggesting that the group may declare a charge on both li and hi, then if the li evades, the group moves part of the way towards the hi, and then splits up allowing the MI to complete its move into contact. To do this, you are suggesting that the group has completed its charge move before it contacts an enemy unit, and that the MI are actually ‘continuing a charge’. 

However this suggestion is wrong in a number of aspects:-
  1. By definition, a ‘charge’ move must end with the charging unit (or group) in contact with an enemy unit (the specified targets). See Charge p 36
  2. Continuing a charge only occurs “When one or more units of a charging group contact the enemy†see p36.  
  3. A group must stay together throughout its move (as I said earlier), see groups p10.
  4. The ‘target(s)’ must be specified before the charge move takes place, and must obviously be valid for the unit(s) leading the charge. See Evade adjusted movement distance, FAQ p11

So, basically, if you want the units to charge as a group, the only legal target is the li, because LI may not charge (into contact) with heavier units. However, if you want to charge the enemy hi, the only unit that may do this is the MI. 

As I said earlier, the references you quote (7. charge movement  paragraphs 4 and 6) only apply where some unspecified enemy unit is contacted. Since all targets have been specified (and by implication other units within charge range may not be contacted), this can only apply to units beyond the charge range that will be contacted if the chargers roll ‘long’. In this particular case, since the group is being led by the LI, the only enemy units it could legitimately contact would be other light enemy units. 

Does that make sense now?
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 21, 2019 7:50 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Okay, I'm beginning to think Tim has a point here - we're getting to angels on the head of a pin territory. I'll give it one last go and if you don't agree maybe take it to the TD.
Ramses II a écrit:
So, let me try to understand what you are suggesting. In the following diagram, moving from left to right:-


MI,LI <1.5UD> li,hi


Where the group MI & LI wish to make a charge on the enemy li and hi. What are their options?

You are suggesting that the group may declare a charge on both li and hi...

No, The MI/LI declare a charge on the LI as the only permissable target for the group. Also, and this is why the charge is done as it is, the distance between the LI is under 1UD (but more than half a UD) thus permitting a spontaneous charge.
Ramses II a écrit:
... then if the li evades, the group moves part of the way towards the hi, and then splits up allowing the MI to complete its move into contact.
Pretty much.
Ramses II a écrit:
To do this, you are suggesting that the group has completed its charge move before it contacts an enemy unit, and that the MI are actually ‘continuing a charge’. 
Yes
Ramses II a écrit:
However this suggestion is wrong in a number of aspects:-
1 By definition, a ‘charge’ move must end with the charging unit (or group) in contact with an enemy unit (the specified targets). See Charge p 36
Obviously not.
Ramses II a écrit:
2 Continuing a charge only occurs “When one or more units of a charging group contact the enemy†see p36.
No, it also occurs when a unit is blocked by a ZoC it can't enter and in the case of new enemy the charger cannot contact as covered by the evade rules.
Ramses II a écrit:
 3 A group must stay together throughout its move (as I said earlier), see groups p10.
Except when some units continue the charge or as necessary for conforming, or when some units are halted by enemy ZoCs, or when units with different movement rates are split up chasing an evader.
Ramses II a écrit:
4 The ‘target(s)’ must be specified before the charge move takes place, and must obviously be valid for the unit(s) leading the charge. See Evade adjusted movement distance, FAQ p11
It was, see above.
Ramses II a écrit:
So, basically, if you want the units to charge as a group, the only legal target is the li, because LI may not charge (into contact) with heavier units. However, if you want to charge the enemy hi, the only unit that may do this is the MI. 
Yes, that's what I've been saying. This means that when the LI evade, the HI present as a new target (ie one that was not a target of the original charge declaration) which allows the MI to continue their charge as per 7. charge movement  paragraph 6.
Ramses II a écrit:
As I said earlier, the references you quote (7. charge movement  paragraphs 4 and 6) only apply where some unspecified enemy unit is contacted.
I'd be interested to know how you drew that conclusion as nothing in the rule talks about contact having to be made before a charge is continued.
Ramses II a écrit:
Since all targets have been specified (and by implication other units within charge range may not be contacted), this can only apply to units beyond the charge range that will be contacted if the chargers roll ‘long’. In this particular case, since the group is being led by the LI, the only enemy units it could legitimately contact would be other light enemy units. 

Does that make sense now?
No, because the rule covers this situation EXPLICITLY:
Citation:
Page 40 7. charge movement  paragraph 6
If contact with this new enemy is not allowed (i.e. LI on HI) then the unit or group concerned must stop at one UD of the new enemy. The others units can continue their charge.
I see no requirement for the group to have contacted an enemy to allow some units to continue the charge.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 21, 2019 10:18 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Okay, this is where we disagree.

FAQ p11, Evade adjusted movement distance; 
This requires that "When you declare a charge, you must specify the target and this must be in charge range." 

P42 Exceptions to an uncontrolled charge, and FAQ Charging and the minimum move distance have the same implication:- 
Citation:
Q: A LI wants to charge an enemy LI. However, if it charges it may come into contact with another heavier enemy that is less than 1 UD from it. Can it charge? If the enemy LI evades, can the charging LI stop before it has travelled the minimum distance of 1 UD? 
A: In this case the LI cannot charge because it may contact a heavy troop and this contact is not allowed.
This shows that the charger (LI) must consider all 'valid' targets within their minimum charge move of 1UD, here both the enemy LI and enemy HI.  In the rules, top of p42 under Exceptions to uncontrolled charge a similar example is given that covers the entire move distance

By implication this means that the charger must specify targets from among all enemy units that could potentially be contacted, even where they are behind a unit that can evade.

In your example, this means that both the enemy LI and HI must be declared as targets if the group wishes to charge either of them, since they are within charge range of the group.

From the rules above I contend that if you have not specified the HI as a target, you may not subsequently change your mind and contact it; to do otherwise is both confusing and frankly a bit ‘gamey’. 

Defining the target(s) and those units which will not be contacted also clarifies the entire process, as both players can then agree what can or cannot be done, especially in respect to ZoCs etc. 

The misunderstandings over the definitions of a charge, continuing a charge and group moves all stem from this basic point.
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 21, 2019 10:42 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Okay, let's go back to Mike's example:

Citation:
One Hubert used on me where part of a group stopped is a mixed chanrge of heavies and lights against my similairly screened heavies. Heavies and LI screen attached at the front charge similiar enemy. Enemy lights evaded, charging screen stopped short of contact on my heavies (not allowed), and heavies behind carried on through into my heavies.

Was Hubert's tactic legitimate?
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Mer Aoû 21, 2019 11:07 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
No. 
(As I said above LoL)
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 22, 2019 6:11 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ramses II a écrit:
Okay, this is where we disagree.

FAQ p11, Evade adjusted movement distance; 
This requires that "When you declare a charge, you must specify the target and this must be in charge range." 

P42 Exceptions to an uncontrolled charge, and FAQ Charging and the minimum move distance have the same implication:- 
Citation:
Q: A LI wants to charge an enemy LI. However, if it charges it may come into contact with another heavier enemy that is less than 1 UD from it. Can it charge? If the enemy LI evades, can the charging LI stop before it has travelled the minimum distance of 1 UD? 
A: In this case the LI cannot charge because it may contact a heavy troop and this contact is not allowed.
This shows that the charger (LI) must consider all 'valid' targets within their minimum charge move of 1UD, here both the enemy LI and enemy HI.  In the rules, top of p42 under Exceptions to uncontrolled charge a similar example is given that covers the entire move distance

By implication this means that the charger must specify targets from among all enemy units that could potentially be contacted, even where they are behind a unit that can evade.

You're taking a very specific exception - LI within 1UD of, say, HI can't charge intervening LI because their minimum move of 1UD would result in an illegal contact - and saying this means the LI in the example must declare a charge on the HI.

Wrong.

Ramses II a écrit:
In your example, this means that both the enemy LI and HI must be declared as targets if the group wishes to charge either of them, since they are within charge range of the group.

But since the HI can't be a target of the group the charge can't be declared on it.

Ramses II a écrit:
From the rules above I contend that if you have not specified the HI as a target, you may not subsequently change your mind and contact it; to do otherwise is both confusing and frankly a bit ‘gamey’. 

You can contend all you like, but that's not in the rules.

Ramses II a écrit:
Defining the target(s) and those units which will not be contacted also clarifies the entire process, as both players can then agree what can or cannot be done, especially in respect to ZoCs etc. 

The misunderstandings over the definitions of a charge, continuing a charge and group moves all stem from this basic point.

There are no misunderstandings here, just a determination by you to introduce rules that don't exist.
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 22, 2019 10:41 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
daveallen a écrit:
There are no misunderstandings here
Well apparently there are, otherwise we wouldn’t be having this discussion Smile

Rather than me trying to second guess your views all the time, perhaps you could explain how you see the situation working. 
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daveallen
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MessagePosté le: Jeu Aoû 22, 2019 12:05 pm    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
The situation is two groups of troops facing each other, one consisting of MI screened by LI, the other of HI similarly screened. Like so:

MI/LI <- 0.75 UD -> LI/HI
MI/LI <- 0.75 UD -> LI/HI
MI/LI <- 0.75 UD -> LI/HI

The MI/LI group charges the other spontaneously. The target for that charge is the enemy LI and only the LI.

[Note. It is not uncommon or even controversial for a player to use a limited charge (by, say, cavalry) to force a skirmish screen to evade away from the front of the troops they are screening]

The enemy LI evade revealing a new enemy
Citation:
(paragraph 4 page 40)

If a new enemy is in the path of the charge, it can be contacted and can also evade in turn if possible. The procedure is identical except that the charging unit does not perform further movement.


Then the charging LI must stop because they can't charge HI, but the MI may "continue their charge:"
Citation:
(paragraph 6 page 40)

If contact with this new enemy is not allowed (i.e. LI on HI) then the unit or group concerned must stop at one UD of the new enemy. The others units can continue their charge.


It's almost as if the rule was written to cover just this situation. Wink
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Ramses II
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MessagePosté le: Dim Aoû 25, 2019 9:44 am    Sujet du message: Répondre en citant
Ok, so Dave and I continued our debate offline. In summary,
  • while I accept that the charger may choose to charge successive targets as the are revealed by closer units evading, I still feel this can cause confusion and bad feelings where the defender then also changes his mind depending on the new charge declarations. 
  • I maintain that RAW a unit or group may only continue a charge if it has already made contact with an enemy (target) unit.
    Dave’s views differ. Apparently this may have been permitted in the previous version, and the current charge process does not prevent a charge that has started from bumping into an illegal contact (and the group being split up as a consequence).
I have passed this issue on to the TB, and Patrick has informed me that he already intended to clarify the charge process in V4.
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